back to county council home page

Volusia County Tourist Development Council
Meeting Minutes
June 5, 2002

Meeting called to order at 9:00 AM by chairman Big John. Big John asked for a motion to approve the minutes of the April 17, 2002 meeting. Jim Bazemore so moved, Lori Campbell-Baker seconded the motion. The motion carried. Big John asked about the minutes being on the internet, Frank Gummy advised him that the procedure has been that they not be published until approved.

Big John: Our first presentation will be from Jim Wachtel.

Jim Wachtel: Basically this is a re-presentation of the talk I gave back in February when we went through the various possibilities of putting an expansion onto the west side of the Ocean Center. What was suggested in April was to make sure that the existing lobby (if we are going to use the main exhibit floor in the Ocean Center now in conjunction with the expansion) can service both facilities and have good flow of communications. The last drawing that we did showed a centralized lobby between the expansion and the new facility and could be opened up and used by both of them or independently. That has been incorporated in here as well as being able to get to meeting rooms, ball rooms, ticketing facilities would be in there, so it would be a central place that would tie the whole facility together so you wouldn’t have to go outside to get to any of the venues, and would give flow to the whole thing. There are stairs here and we could put some escalators in to get to the second floor to the existing meeting rooms. The things we took into account of the wishes of council as far as having a centralized lobby and tying the two buildings together.

Big John: Tell us what you have drawn. We’ve got the existing Ocean Center on the right side, what are the modifications to it.

Jim Wachtel: The ticketing area and the front lobby have been incorporated into the new lobby, we would keep the barrier here to close off that exhibition hall as a separate facility. And anything that we want to do to the second floor as far as offices or taking out the offices and making balcony. That would be the only changes to the existing Ocean Center that would be necessary. We could do a number of other things, we could add some meeting rooms, we could add some function spaces, but we don’t have to. We could put all this in here. As we’ve shown before the expansion could be phased. We could add a ballroom and some exhibition space, but not the whole thing.

Big John: So the only thing you’re going to tear out is the ticket booth.

Jim Wachtel: The ticket booth and those doors on either side of the ticket booth.

Big John: Other than that, the Ocean Center stays the same. Tell me what you’ve got because I can’t read the words. (On the drawing displayed)

Jim Wachtel: From this point over is exhibition space, we have a ballroom. What we’ve shown is a drop off turn around coming off of Olive with a plaza that leads right to the ballroom and to the exhibition space.

Big John: How big is the ballroom?

Jim Wachtel: I believe it is 30,000 square feet. We have a turn around here in front of the Peabody that could also serve as a drop off for the Peabody that would lead directly into the meeting rooms, and I believe we have 20,000 square feet of meeting rooms with some of the support functions at this point. So you could access those without going into the exhibition space or into the lobby. You could also access them from this side of the building without going outside; and both of these would lead directly to the lobby so that if you were dropped off on this side you could circulate through the lobby to the Peabody and anything on the south side of the Ocean Center. To the west of this is all exhibition space, kitchen, service and exhibition space that could be separated on two sides of a main corridor or could be used as one space for a large convention. Immediately to the west of that is the storage and mechanical spaces that would be needed to service the space with service coming off Hollywood without having to come around into the pedestrian space.

Jim Bazemore: Square footage of the exhibition space there, please.

Jim Wachtel: 145,000 total.

Gilly Aguiar: What is the new space?

Jim Wachtel: The new space is about 100,000 square feet.

Jim Bazemore: Have you got an estimated cost yet?

Jim Wachtel: Whatever we talked about before.

Rick Hamilton: $56 million.

Stuart Arp: The nice thing about this is you can still run the current Ocean Center without closing it down.

Tom Staed: Where is the parking?

Jim Wachtel: The parking garage is here, as I’ve mentioned, when you do this you face a parking problem. We’re taking the surface lots and the only additional space we would have is this space over here (pointing to a small lot on the south side of the Ocean Center), which is a minimal space. So there is a parking problem that we could solve by putting in a parking garage in another space.

Jim Bazemore: How many spaces are you giving up by building that building?

Jim Wachtel: 450 in the surface lots.

Big John: How many do you have down south there?

Rick Hamilton: There are no parking spaces there, that is just cleared land.

Jim Wachtel: That is just cleared land and maybe you could get 30 to 40 spaces.

Rick Hamilton: He’s talking about the two blocks Jim, we’ve bought all the way back to Main Street.

Jim Wachtel: I don’t know, we haven’t looked at that.

Big John: Chad knows, Chad how many spaces are there?

Chad Smith: Between the two lots there are about 350 spaces.

Big John: OK so we lose about 100 spaces.

Stuart Arp: And just to remind everybody again, our south parking lot is owned by the City and we lease it back and there has been talk of putting a garage there, which would be very easy to do. They own the property and if we get them to agree to do it and we keep the spaces we have now, then go as high as we can go.

Jim Wachtel: Wasn’t that sort of earmarked for the south boardwalk redevelopment?

Stuart Arp: That’s been talked about.

Jim Wachtel: That’s an element that’s coming about in the redevelopment.

Stuart Arp: That could still feed both.

Jim Wachtel: There is still a parking problem that needs to be addressed, by somebody, whether it is this Council, the County, the City, the Ocean Center of a private developer. There is a parking problem that is going to occur.

Big John: How many parking spaces do we need?

Jim Wachtel: It is going to be a negotiated thing. I think there are going to be about 800 spaces that is going to have to be negotiated with the City. Because, theoretically a lot of these attendees are going to stay at the hotels and they won’t need a place to park. But then you have things like the Boat Show and the Home Show and Graduation that still need local parking.

Darlene Yordon: Could I just do a clarification on the parking, where the new portion of the building is going, how many spaces is that area?

Jim Wachtel: 450.

Darlene Yordon: Then we have another 100 to go down to Main Street, so 350 from Auditorium to Main Street.

Big John: We haven’t bought all the parcels down there yet, so that might up it a little bit.

Tom Staed: At the next meeting could you review the available parking, where it is and who owns it? I don’t know that the County owns it or the City owns it. I don’t know how big it is, and I don’t know what the City requirements would be for parking.

Big John: At the next meeting Jim Wachtel will give us a little region parking plan. Including Stuart’s property.

Tom Staed: I don’t want to start throwing obstacles but we need to start considering that to figure it out as part of this whole development. I’m very pleased with that whole concept, but we have to find parking for the events that need parking.

Darlene Yordon: You will be shut down from A1A to Hollywood; Hollywood would remain open.

Big John: I would expect Hollywood would be widened.

Darlene Yordon: Would that street be blocked off?

Jim Wachtel: It probably will, we want to use that for service, for loading, etc.

Darlene Yordon: Will that street be blocked off or will it remain open.

Jim Wachtel: I would assume it would be open.

Dana Li: Is this just the Phase I portion of the original plan?

Jim Wachtel: This is the whole build-out of the plan.

Dana Li: Of the $130 million project.

Gilly Aguiar: That would bring it to 220,000 square feet, is that correct?

Dana Li: Is this the total build-out sheet for the whole project?

Jim Wachtel: That’s correct. This assumes 200-car parking in that $130 million.

Big John: You told us $56 million for what you are showing us.

Jim Wachtel: Just for the building. What I had submitted back in November included three phases of parking for about $53 million, so the building itself is $56 million.

Gilly Aguiar: When he does the parking schematic on the regional area, we’re going to need somewhere for the unloaded trucks for the exhibitors. That’s not included in that unloading/service area.

Lori Campbell-Baker: Where do they go now, just in the parking lot?

Rick Hamilton: Yes.

Big John: Any questions? Mr. Libby.

Gary Libby: Has there been a cost analysis on whether or not the inclusion of parking at the site of the new center, either above it or below it would be more efficient than building a parking garage to the south where the City already owns land.

Jim Wachtel: We really haven’t looked at any parking under or over this facility. We just assumed it would be somewhere else. That’s certainly a possibility, but we haven’t looked at that at this time. The purpose of these studies was to give a size that came up in the Johnson report and the earlier needs analysis, and to see what kind of land we had and what would fit on the land, and what kinds of problems we had. The obvious problem is parking; we just addressed that it is a problem with no clear real solution.

Dwight Lewis: You’re saying the extra one- percent will create about $25 million to $30 million. What kind of phasing can be done? I know we talked about phasing before doing about half that building, is that a viable option, or I guess later in the agenda you have a special taxing district that would be set up. At some place you have to come up with that extra $70 million, either you’ve got to get to the phasing portion and discuss what can be phased or later in the agenda what amount of money that will generate.

Jim Wachtel: Let me just say that the building plan is going to have to be phased, I believe, and that whatever we come up with is going to have to respond to that. The problem is, do we put the ballroom in first, do we put the meeting rooms in first, or do we put the exhibition space in first. That’s why Evelyn and Sharon’s work in defining what needs to be in place when, so that the plan can respond to that.

Dwight Lewis: The phasing then should be tied to the parking requirements with a possibility of phasing along those lines.

Jim Wachtel: Obviously if you don’t build the full 120,000 build-out you don’t need all the parking. If you just build half this you still have space available for parking and you don’t have so much of a load. So that will definitely be part of the plan.

Dwight Lewis: You need to have a plan for later.

Big John: Just to clarify, you told us there is 150,000 square feet of ballroom, meeting and exhibition space, then there is the need for storage, etc. How much is that?

Rick Hamilton: It normally runs about 35% of the total area.

Big John: So if I take 35% of 150,000 that would add that much more.

Evelyn Fine: I just want to remind everybody that for meetings and meeting planners, parking is not an issue. The parking issues are just for local use of the facility.

Big John: But I think we would be irresponsible on our part not to address this issue.

Any other questions of Mr. Wachtel?

So should our next task for Mr. Wachtel, what should it be?

Jim Wachtel: Let me make a suggestion. For the last nine months to a year we have been throwing darts at this big, big problem. Just to give some ideas and some information about the scope of the problems, the scope of what needs to be done. There are not a lot of darts we can still throw at this and give you good solid information on how much square footage, how many meeting rooms, how much cost or how much parking. Those are just little darts. We need to look at this whole thing in some larger scale with a full programming effort and phasing and discussion with the City of Daytona Beach as far as parking and traffic flow. There is a multi-headed monster out there; we can’t just throw darts any more. We have to take a shotgun and start looking at this. It’s getting to the point where you need to study it on a larger scale. This is good information, it’s solid information, but it’s just minimal information. We need to get into it in a deeper, more professional way to give you the kind of information you need for phasing and pricing and that sort of thing.

Big John: So you want to start becoming more specific about your suggestions.

Jim Wachtel: I’m talking about a three or four month programming and design process that meets with Evelyn and Sharon and the hoteliers and the County and the City to really define what we need here.

Jim Bazemore: Somewhere down the road someone needs to pay you. Where is it coming from and how much is it going to be?

Big John: That’s not his job, his job is to tell us how much it’s going to cost. He doesn’t care how we pay for it.

Jim Bazemore: That’s right.

Jim Wachtel: You want to know what the building costs?

Jim Bazemore: That’s right I want to know what your cost is and I want to know what the building costs.

Jim Wachtel: I believe we gave you a fee proposal several months ago, and it was held off, I don’t remember how much that was. Where that comes from, I don’t know, I don’t think the Council has thought about that.

Dwight Lewis: Are you in agreement about how much exhibition space, etc. we need. I don’t think he can go ahead without this information.

Big John: I think we’ve come to that conclusion, but let’s hear anybody that’s not sure.

Gilly Aguiar: Me. On the new side you’re saying there will be 70,000 square feet of exhibit space, is that correct?

Jim Wachtel: No, 100,000.

Rick Hamilton: 100,000 was what we agreed on last time, it was what we had always proposed and 100,000 minimum.

Gilly Aguiar: 100,000 exhibition space and 30,000 ballroom.

Rick Hamilton: I’ve seen it documented; I think it went out in the minutes, 40,000 meeting space.

Evelyn Fine: The only thing I can see a gap in is the meeting space.

Gilly Aguiar: Then there’s a gap in the exhibition space. In her report she said they were looking for 25,000 to 30,000 for meeting space and they wanted the exhibition space to be cohesive, not fragmented. I like that design, but maybe the corridor in the middle could be opened up a little and the meeting space could be took to the side a little bit.

Jim Wachtel: There are plenty of options when we know what you want.

Big John: We’re going to use escalators to get to the second floor in the old building.

Jim Wachtel: The last time we showed some escalators, and I think we need to have some in here.

Big John: Evelyn is quizzical, and I don’t want her to be, do you know what you are quizzical about?

Evelyn Fine: Thank you. I think we need to look at the detail, we’re guessing, at how much is what, that is an issue with me, for sure. We’re not sure how much is exhibit space and how much is meeting space and that’s got me puzzled.

Big John: Right now we are at this point, do we need to go back, to slow up, and if someone is not comfortable we need to go back.

Sharon Mock: I think we need more detail on the drawing, the size of the kitchen, etc. It looks good from here, in terms of accessibility and flow…

Jim Wachtel: I’ll tell you, what is on here is what was in the Johnson report. I just don’t have that for you right now. This was presented back in September or November. That detail is available, that’s what’s on here. I believe that it was 20,000 square feet of meeting room and 30,000 square feet of ballroom. We duplicated that because we had nothing else to go on. What I’m asking for now is something more specific to go on, coming from you.

Big John: Before I just summarily say yes, I want this group to be happy.

Evelyn Fine: What we said that the meeting planners said was they wanted an average of 100,000 square feet more of exhibit space and at least 40,000 more square feet more of meeting space, and I’m not seeing that.

Big John: You mean more than we have now?

Evelyn Fine: Yes, plus 30,000 more for a ballroom.

Jim Wachtel: What you’re seeing here was done last September prior to what you did. So what we need to do is take her information and marry that into what we did.

Rick Hamilton: The only difference in the two numbers is the Johnson report was 124,500 square feet of exhibit space 30,000 ballroom, 20,000 meeting room. So all we have to do to fit within that footprint is take 24,000 off the exhibition space and put it on the meeting space and we have Evelyn’s numbers.

Big John: LCB, you have a question.

Lori Campbell-Baker: The split in the exhibition space, is that going to be an issue with them?

Evelyn Fine: Yes, I think it’s a huge issue, unless you are talking about people who are only going to use that side of the building.

Lori Campbell-Baker: Do you have a big enough group that would use all of the exhibition space?

Evelyn Fine: Yes, and they won’t be happy about the way it is.

Tom Staed: If the ballroom is out of kilter it is hard to use, and I don’t know if this is the optimum design for 20,000 square feet of meeting space. That’s something that Stuart and Evelyn that do these meetings have got to look at, the internal design and I don’t think you can split them up, if you can split them up then what you’re saying is you’ve got whatever the space on either side, but you can’t put them together if they’re divided by walls.

Evelyn Fine: It’s essentially become two different venues at this point.

Sharon Mock: They may use the space for something else, but they will not split the exhibits.

Gilly Aguiar: Which is to say that if we can do something with the middle section and move the ballroom off to the side with the meeting rooms and keep that all together.

Tom Staed: If there is a way to divide the m then you have to be able to put them all back together.

Gilly Aguiar: In the Johnson report, is this what Rick said, 145,000 for exhibit space, 25,000 to 40,000 for meeting space and 30,000 for ballroom.

Frank Gummey: As a matter of procedure, it occur s to me that this group has zero expenditure authority. Mr. Hamilton has $25,000 in expenditure authority, and the next phase you ’re talking about it seems is neither zero nor $25,000. So as a matter of procedure it would seem that maybe you would want to be correcting your findings and recommendations and sending them to County Council to see how they wish to proceed.

Big John: I was starting to say there were two things and the second is the County Council, I was waiting to talk to Mr. Hamilton to find out what the next part of the bill was to design this. If it is three or four months I tend to think it might be pricey. We need to really pause now and decide if this is the way we are going and if the bill is over $25,000 and if we don’t pyramid, then we’ll have to go to the County Council for authorization, so this is the time for us to make a decision.

Rick Hamilton: Let me give you just a little further information, and Jim you correct me if I’m wrong, you want to go into what is the master planning stage and to do that he will look at the overall site, he will look at traffic engineering, he will bring those people in to see how traffic will flow, he will look at programming to see what the actual building will look like and how it will meet the client’s needs, who those clients are. It’s a very involved detailed process, where up to this point we have just been talking about concept. Evelyn has been gathering information about those types of people that would come here. It is costly, and we don’t know where the money is coming from at this time, and I just want this group to know the next step is going to be costly and those funds will be coming out of the Ocean Center budget.

Jim Wachtel: Let me just say we (as a community) are looking at $56 million plus. This is not dressing up the boardwalk. This is a major project. You spend a half a percent making sure it’s done right from the beginning. What’s ½% of $56 million, I don’t know right off the top of my head, but it’s an awful lot of money.

Big John: What’s that $280,000.

Jim Wachtel: It’s not that pricey at this point. It’s a big project that you all are looking at and a major investment to do and it’s not a $200 study on this parking lot. It’s not, it takes a lot of expertise, all the questions you are asking me are valid, and it takes a lot of professionalism and a lot of work to get the right answers for you.

Big John: What should we do?

Tom Staed: I’m totally in favor of the convention center addition looking something like that, but I don’t know how you go about designing a $56 million structure, without putting some pretty good ideas about how you’re going to fund it. I’m on another committee right now that is looking at a lot smaller building than that and went on and started doing plans, and we’re $11 million over our budget. This one we’ve got to figure out where we’re going to get the money to pay for it before we start drawing grand plans and spend half of one percent of that total or more.

Big John: So you would prefer to slow up on that?

Tom Staed: Maybe somebody here sees a vision how to design this thing without knowing where the money’s coming from. But I think you need to know what kind of will you have the money in before you lock in the plans. We may need to define this a little more, and draw the rooms in a configuration we could all agree on and draw the phasing aspect (just lines on a piece of paper) without designing it and get a ballpark $200 a square foot or whatever it is for Phase I, Phase II And Phase III and be realistic going in. I’m not very willing to say we’ re going to pay $56 million until we say the hotel industry is going to support with a penny and where else are we going to get the money. You can get locked into a building that’s $56 million, and that’s fine, but where are you going to get the $56 million?

Big John: So you’re saying you want to dabble around with this a little bit, but you really want to do financing before you go to a real plan.

Tom Staed: I’m not sure how you go about getting to that other number $130 million and I don’t know where in the world you’re going to get that.

Dana Li: Is the $56 million just the building only, so the remainder of the $130 million is the parking and everything else that surrounds it.

Jim Wachtel: Parking, land and other costs.

John Masiarczyk: I agree with Mr. Staed on this I’ve got two sets of drawings for buildings that we had completely designed and they weren’t feasible to build afterwards, and they make nice fodder on the shelf, but I don’t want to get caught in that trap. I’m also concerned, Darlene, what the City of Daytona Beach thinks about this whole thing, you get into a small argument about the number of parking spaces. Does the city support this project? Do they want to see roads and traffic situations around here, it could be a massive impact down here, I don’t know. I’m not familiar with the day to day, but I’d like to see some numbers on that. The Ocean Center has been here 18 years and there’s $15 million to $18 million on the original building.

Rick Hamilton: I think it’s more like $19 million.

Gilly Aguiar: I thought we owed $32 million.

Rick Hamilton: It’s paid off in 2013 I can tell you that.

John Masiarczyk: That’s what we originally thought and if we keep getting creative and doing more financing we may be paying for the same building forever. This is a heck of a decision, and I think we need to fine-tune it. If that’s the footprint we want, then let’s check out everything else before we engage him to draw anything else. If that’s the footprint we’ve got to work with, moving walls as far as ballrooms and everything else can be done, let’s not have him start doing it on paper until we’re sure all the other aspects of this area. If Daytona Beach is happy with it, we are.

Tom Staed: You’ve got a penny that you’re talking about, what is it delivered, and what area is it delivered from, on just one penny. What other sources are you looking at for revenue. Is the city going to do a bond issue, is the county going to be involved in it, or are you going to try to have a special taxing district, what does it include? I absolutely support this and I think that the general pieces of that design is what is needed with the parking added to it and whatever phasing you do because you have to have places to park people.

Darlene Yordon: I think what I’d like to see done is bringing it up at some type of workshop of presentation to the City Commission for direction or endorsement of it. I think it’s a crucial part of what we’re doing over here right now especially with the boardwalk redevelopment. I think we have an RFP or are in the process of putting out an RFP, so I don’t know how everybody would feel, but asking the Daytona Beach City Commission for endorsement and direction help.

Big John: Do we have enough information to go to the city with?

Darlene Yordon: I think we have enough to make a presentation, I think the City Commission needs to be aware of this. What’s going on because we’re working on so many other projects in that immediate area, it’s really something we need to continue. The meeting we did last Thursday was really good and we need to continue with this trend, this is an important part of our redevelopment area.

Jim Bazemore: May I recommend, like we did last Wednesday, have a joint meeting with the city and the county on this subject. If you do it one time you can cover everybody.

Big John: I think that’s a good idea, I think we need to get some more finance information before we do it. We may not have to worry about anybody if we figure out we don’t have nearly enough money to do it. So, Mr. Wachtel I don’t think we will give you a task at this time.

Tom Staed: I’m not sure I remember what the Phase I, II & III is.

Rick Hamilton: I don’t think we ever decided that.

Tom Staed: Maybe that’s why I don’t remember.

Jim Wachtel: I believe we did discuss different phasing based on the Johnson report and the amount of square footage and the impact it’s going to make, but we never got to a physical where is this going to go and how is it going to lay out type of aspect of that. We were looking at the overall build out and how that would fit onto the site and how the phasing could grow into that.

Tom Staed: Maybe what would help with that is to draw what these ballrooms and exhibition and meeting rooms and draw them in with the phasing and it’s not an expensive thing, it’s just raw space and this is Phase I and this is Phase II and this is Phase III and the raw numbers that you already know in the overall project and put in the phasing project, and you need this much parking for Phase I and it costs "X" number of dollars for Phase I or whatever the number is then you need to figure out where to get that money.

Jim Bazemore: Lack of information and rumors messes up more deals than you can shake a stick at. Particularly communication, and when I read in the paper that the County and City fathers had not met together for 15 years I was astounded. Are we from different countries or what?

Big John: I think it’s been a lot longer than that.

Jim Bazemore: But my point is; with the information we have right now, if somebody is dead set against it, let’s not spend a lot of money doing something else. Tell them where we are frankly ask for their help. If this is a good project everybody will be for it, and if somebody is not for it we will find out. You can plan and project and spend money forever. I’d like to have a joint meeting and get their input because the City of Daytona Beach is a very vital part of this and so is the County.

Big John: I just don’t think we have enough of a story to tell them till we get our finances in order.

Lori Campbell-Baker: I think Jim has a good point in communication. It doesn’t have to be a full meeting, but update from time to time. I think it would be a good idea to get with the City Commission and say this is what the group has come up with so far, here are the details that we’re still working on and we’re looking at financing options and we’ll get back to you. That way everybody is on the same page. And we do that with the County Council and any other group that is interested, and I think that’s where the public input starts.

Darlene Yordon: I think that’s an excellent point, and I think the presentation of this project because the perception is that we as government people are wasting a lot of money especially the heat you are under right now with the parking garage. I think this needs to be presented in phases. We need to do a good sales job on this out in the community. It’s certainly not going to hurt for a presentation. We are in a little bit of financial difficulty right now, but maybe there is something the City of Daytona Beach can do to help in this project, because it is certainly beneficial for us to have this go forward you never can tell, communication doesn’t hurt.

Frank Gummey: I think I go back to what I said previously, as a matter of procedure we need to report to the County Council our findings for a recommendation to go out…

Big John: I don’t think we have enough to recommend right now.

Frank Gummey: I don’t think it is up to this group to go out by itself to other entities.

Big John: I still think we need to wait just a little longer and gather just a little more information, unless we were going to tell Mr. Wachtel to go ahead and start designing, which we decided we ’re not going to do. I think we would stand up there with more questions than answers and I’d like to have a few more answers.

Gilly Aguiar: I agree with everybody here and we need to have the financing, but like Darlene said, we should be going in front of the county and the city with a general presentation. This is basically what we think we need, and we have Evelyn’s reports to show what we think we need, we’ve got the Johnson report. Let’s see if the City is ready to help with some of the financing. I think we need to show the county a basic outline of where we’re at and from here on out we’re going to spend a lot of money for something that we don’t even know if we want.

Jim Bazemore: We could talk this to death. Give us some time frame of how long we’re going to be here before we go to the city and county, of how you proceed. Can we at this time determine when we can go to the City Council or the County Council?

Big John: First of all, we have to go to the County Council first. I was thinking without a cursory review of finances, it is not responsible of us to go to the County Council and say this is the kind of building we want, but we don’t know how we’re going to finance it. Everybody is full of ideas.

Tom Staed: I don’t know what we’re going to take to them till I see how you’re going to phase it and what each phase is going to cost. Secondly, I don’t think we have anything to take to them till we have some general idea of what we think will be the funding source. You have to have a story to tell them, and I don’t know what that story is at this point.

Stuart Arp: I agree, I think you figure out how to phase it and what that general cost is and then give some ideas. We’ve talked about some special taxing districts and got some ideas from other communities and what they have done. Not putting our recommendation on any one of those, but this is what one cent does and some general options to fund each phase or the whole thing. That is the big issue, that’s the first thing they’re going to say, how are we going to pay for this thing. If we don’t have some answers they’re not even going to listen to us.

Dwight Lewis: I think Big has done a good job at the council meetings of keeping people up to date. I don’t think it needs to be a big proposal, but I think during council time you should bring them up to date on where we are, I wouldn’t open it up to questions and answers, because we don’t have that, but at least they would know these are some of the problems we are looking into and phasing and then if there is a major problem someone will say so. They’re not going to do that. Our council has always listened, and they are fairly up to date on what’s going on, and I think you need to continue to do that because it’s important for this communication take place just as everyone has said. I don’t think you need to have a major presentation by you at council time. Just tell them we had a meeting today and we’re looking at phasing and we’re looking at financing and we’re addressing them and when they’re solved we’ll be back to bring you up to date. That way it calms the waters that everybody hears the same story at the same time.

Jim Bazemore: May I suggest sir, that we do the same thing with the City of Daytona Beach.

Rick Hamilton: As this group knows, on June 19th Stuart, myself and members of the Ocean Walk Alliance are doing a first of that type of meeting Mr. Bazemore and all the members of the council. We’re having all the folks from the County Council over to the Ocean Center for dinner at 5:30 pm, I think it is. We ’re actually going to show them these things and go over what has been done to this point and in planning for the future. The very next one after that could very well be with the City Commission, Darlene if you have available time. It’s a good way to do it, there are a lot of our council members that haven’t seen what Stuart has done here at the Adam’s Mark, what’s been going on with the village, haven’t been in the Ocean Walk Towers. Those are some of the things that Stuart and I are doing as staff people to try to keep awareness up with our elected officials.

Dwight Lewis: While we’re talking about this, the parking garage is a huge issue that must be handled and must be solved for the long term in a fairly reasonable time. It was bought another 30 days, but that will go by fast. That has to be handled prior to all this being handled also.

Big John: That’s on the agenda I think.

Darlene Yordon: I need a little help from you on presentation on the City Commission. We’re starting a workshop tonight at 5:00 and I don’t expect it to be over before midnight. We have been having some pretty contentious meetings. Timing will be crucial to presenting this to the City Commission. I want it to be done in a positive light. Maybe a short memo that could be presented to them, I don’t want to drop it on them at 12:30 at night under commissioner comments. I want it to be given to them very positively, so I do need a little help in that.

Big John: We’ll make sure Mr. Hamilton helps you with that.

Rick Hamilton: Like I said, I’d like to do it the same way we’re doing it with the council. I will get with Richard and see what time we could invite the council over.

Big John: I will give a very brief report tomorrow to the County Council and then on the 19th the County Council will hear the presentation from Mr. Wachtel, etc. We’ll do a memo to the City Commission, Mr. Hamilton will help Darlene, and then we will get the City Commission over as soon as possible.

Jim Bazemore: Will the TDC be available to attend these meetings?

Big John: It’s up to Mr. Hamilton he’s the host. You can if you like, we will invite them.

Stuart Arp: Should we have Jim (Wachtel) do anything, start anything, like phasing opportunities …

Big John: Tom thinks we can do that. Can you do that without getting into your grandiose plan?

Jim Wachtel: It’s just another dart. Rather than a study, I think we can do it from a square footage stand point and a scope stand point, but the problem is I’ve got to make decisions on where a ballroom goes or do we have 20,000 square feet or 40,000 square feet of meeting room that Evelyn wants.

Tom Staed: These people here need to give you those numbers and say this is where we think you ought to do that. We’re not going to be able to do it in this configuration, because I can’t see how this particular drawing can be phased.

Stuart Arp: I want to say maybe they can do it in two phases, maybe right down the middle.

Jim Wachtel: That may be the way to go, but then again it may not. That’s the kind of thing that really needs to be thought out and negotiated and studied. Let me go back and see what we can do as far as the phasing. I don’t want to say no we can’t do that. But I do want to caution you about phasing. Do we put in half the meeting rooms now, do we put in half the ballroom now and the rest later, these are just a few things that need to be addressed. I’ m loaded with ideas I just need someone to bounce them off of.

Tom Staed: It seems like Stuart and Evelyn and Sharon and whoever else wants to join needs to sort of direct that. I don’t have the expertise to do it. Direct the general scope of the process.

Big John: Stuart did a wonderful job with his last sub-committee, and I suspect he will chair another sub-committee with the same players because we had players on the other committee that are critical to the conception of the building. Would you like Stuart to chair anther committee to help Mr. Wachtel?

Evelyn Fine: At the risk of derailing another sub-committee it occurs to me that we just need to get with Jim (Wachtel) and talk about things, that way it will move a little faster.

Big John: Because it is part of this committee, I’m reluctant to have meetings out of Sunshine.

Frank Gummey: You can’t have meetings out of Sunshine.

Evelyn Fine: I was just thinking staff.

Frank Gummey: Staff cannot do it without it being Sunshine.

Big John: What are you thinking Stuart?

Stuart Arp: I was thinking that phasing of a building has got to be with people like you mentioned that can identify the most important needs. I don’t know, quite honestly, that the Speedway can do that, they’re not…

Lori Campbell-Baker: No. That’s not our expertise.

Stuart Arp: I think it’s Rick’s people who talk to the clients, Evelyn and Sharon, we run big hotels and meeting spaces.

Big John: Do we need a person from the city bureaucracy, a technical kind of person, would that be helpful to you?

Stuart Arp: Is there some kind of planning person, Darlene? That would be helpful. Talking about traffic and impact.

Big John: You don’t want a county planning person there.

Jim Wachtel: We are in the City of Daytona Beach they are going to have to pass off on this anyway so they need to be a player in this.

Big John: OK, so can we ask Stuart and Rick and Sharon and Evelyn and a city person, Mr. Wachtel and anyone else that wants to attend. And it will be a noticed meeting right Mr. Gummey.

Frank Gummey: Yes sir.

Dwight Lewis: And they will be charged with what exactly?

Big John: They’re going to do phasing ideas.

Stuart Arp: If we were to phase this, what’s our first phase, what should be our second, and I don’t know should we go three phases Tom?

Tom Staed: I don’t know. You have to go to the financing part and say here’s what we want and the first thing is going to cost this, etc. and where do you get it. If you go half you still have the same problem.

Jim Wachtel: Coming up with that phasing you get a square footage, which you can attach to. So much at this point in time, so much at that point in time.

Big John: Is it appropriate for this committee to also look at the parking problem or is that too much or not in the same area.

Dwight Lewis: It’s got to be part of it. The City is going to make you include it.

Big John: So phasing including parking. Darlene has asked to be on this committee, so she’s appointed.

Gilly Aguiar: Before we finish with Jim everyone knows what our needs are and first it’s exhibit space and maybe that plan needs to be flip flopped and maybe it needs to be done in two phases, maybe three, I don’t know. We’ve got hard numbers of what we need and I think maybe if you are going to phase it you need to swap some of that and open it up and make it more contiguous. Big foyers will make them feel lost especially if they come from the meeting rooms if we’re going to use some of the old stuff first. If they have to come into a bigger drop right into the foyer and all the exhibit space is right there. I hope that is the kind of thing you are going to look at first, because that is the cheapest space to build first. These will give us numbers that we can attain a little easier.

Big John: Darlene stepped out. She was supposed to gather Patti Evans and bring her to this meeting. I guess we had a change of Administration there and she said Mr. Quigley hasn’t told her what to do yet. So we’ll have to cut them some slack, but I think the Peabody should be part of this plan. Is everybody in agreement about that?

Lori Campbell-Baker: I thought it was coming under this plan.

Big John: I’m trying to put it there I think it’s really natural. We will postpone Peabody till the next meeting and assign Darlene the task of getting Patti Evans to this meeting.

Bob Mills has taken vacation, Mr. Hamilton are you going to fill in for him?

Rick Hamilton: I’m going to differ to Mr. Gummey our legal council on this special taxing district if he doesn’t mind.

Frank Gummey: It’s relatively simple. Excluding an income tax, which constitutionally cannot be done, an ad valorum tax which I will talk about in a minute. Any other tax, which would be levied to support this project, other than the penny, which is currently authorized, would require authorization by general law and enacted by the legislature, and would be applicable statewide. It is an issue that would require we seek general legislation. It is not easy to get the legislature to authorize the use of revenues, which they view as their financial base of support, such as the sales tax, the gas tax. So that is what it would take. You obviously would need not only significant community support but support from other areas of the state to have a reasonable chance of gaining such support.

Big John: Are there no other special taxing districts that were installed to do a project like this?

Frank Gummey: There is one right now that is presently supporting the Ocean Center and there is an additional penny to offer us as general legislation, which is available.

Big John: We’re thinking about a sales tax type of thing. Evelyn says there are.

Evelyn Fine: Sharon has done some research on it.

Sharon Mock: I’m thinking there are other types of taxes, although you are thinking of taxing districts. In some counties there are food and beverage taxes. I just gave Rick a packet (not from the State of Florida) where they are funding their building by…

Frank Gummey: Outside the State of Florida is meaningless.

Sharon Mock: No matter what you do you’re going to have to go to the legislature. There are some laws on the books where you can go in under existing law and become part of it.

Frank Gummey: Go in under an Alabama law?

Sharon Mock: No, a Florida law. I’ve got some information in the office; let me get it to you.

Frank Gummey: The other area would be ad valorum tax where I guess the county could have a municipal service over a discrete area to support it and that would take the acquiescence of any municipality that that would be established in. As we know the history of this area, the bed tax replaced an ad valorum tax, and the political feasibility of returning to the ad valorum tax I will leave to those more politically astute that I.

Big John: So the county couldn’t make a Municipal Service District, sa y from Seabreeze to ISB, ocean to the river (Main Street Redevelopment area basically) and we could impose a tax in that area?

Frank Gummey: With the concurrency of the City.

Big John: That I think would tend to be a tough sell, because you have a lot of residences in that area. It wouldn’t just be on businesses it would be on residences as well, is that correct Mr. Gummey?

Frank Gummey: Correct.

Stuart Arp: So you couldn’t do something just on the businesses in that area?

Frank Gummey: No, you could not.

Evelyn Fine: Wasn’t the ad tax just on commercial?

Frank Gummey: No, across the board.

Darlene Yordon: There has been some talk about a business investment district somewhere in those same boundaries. I don’t know if that is something that would be of any use, since it wasn’t my zone, but I might be able to get some information on it.

Big John: If you would get that information to Mr. Gummy, and Sharon you would get your information to Mr. Gummey and if anyone has any other ideas. I tend to think the MSD thing would be a tough sell.

Let’s move on to the status of the parking garage Mr. Gummey.

Frank Gummey: I don’t think I can bring you any more than what you’ve read in the newspaper. I’ve been out of the State for a couple days, but have been told there are no recent developments that is that money that had accrued as interest on the debt service reserve account has been released by the bond holder, Trans America, and is being used to fund the operations of the parking garage for the month of June and during that time it is hoped the parties of interest will have the opportunity to discuss solutions to provide for operation in the future.

Darlene Yordon: What is the feasibility of Rick taking it over? Is that even a possibility? He does an excellent job of running the Ocean Center it seems to compliment each other.

Rick Hamilton: Money.

Big John: I think everyone, thinks that Mr. Hamilton would do a wonderful job with the parking garage if we could get it to the point where it would break even or even make money. At this time the expenses because of the cost of the bonds themselves and because the revenue is limited, the revenue just covers the bonds for the most part and just leaves a little of money for operating. There is a tremendous deficit. The one thing I can say about Central Parking is they have between $1 million and $1.2 million in operating debt that they have incurred that they have paid out of their own pocket. That is what makes us reluctant to have Mr. Hamilton take it over. With the problems with Adventure Landing and the County Council, there is no need to give them $130,000 a year break in their rent for five years.

Frank Gummey: Deferral.

Big John: Deferral, but that’s not money in our pocket. So that’s $650,000 and $210,000 that the parking garage is supposed to be paying and we’re in our third year now, so that ’s $630,000 and the loss of revenue by the Ocean Center by all surface lots is a tremendous amount of money. So all in all the Ocean Center is taking hits. We all also have to pay $75,000 a year to the Sports Authority out of the Ocean Center funds and it has absolutely nothing to do with the Ocean Center and the county administration comes over here and steals $75,000 from Hal who is not in a position to defend himself and we loose another $75,000, so when you add those numbers up. So if the Ocean Center could get some of it’s own money back we would be in better shape. We need to get the Ocean Center money returned to the Ocean Center.

Is there any old business?

Rick Hamilton: Chad has put together an updated convention bookings list and there are little mail out flyers the Ocean Center has just done.

Big John: I also have a hand out from the New York Times, dated April 3rd, and they talk about everyone racing to build these convention centers and enlarging and things like and how many will make a profit. So you can peruse that at your leisure.

We talked last time about the CVB being in the same building, Sharon do you still think that is a good idea?

Sharon Mock: Yes, if we can, if it is feasible and we can get it in at the right cost figures I think it would be a good idea.

Big John: So in the sub-committee Mr. Arp can you do something?

Stuart Arp: Carve out a little office for Sharon, OK.

Big John: At the last meeting Charlene Weaver was supposed to make some reports to us. For whatever reason she wasn’t in attendance. Do we still want the finance guru’s from the county to come forward and explain the tourist development collection fees and give a report. We were also going to get a report at this meeting about Ocean Walk and how they pay tourist development tax. Should we do that in the next meeting?

Dana Li: The tourist development collection, does any of that money go to West Volusia?

Big John: So that would be part of Charlene’s report. If Dana collects money in West Volusia or even Gilly in Southeast Volusia, and should there be some way to give them some return on their investment.

Gilly Aguiar: They will want a convention center.

John Masiarczyk: What brought it up is there has been some real confusion even by the people in charge down there trying to explain where this revenue comes from and some strong disagreements. Needless to say everybody would like to have a big building that is paid for with somebody else’s money. We would just like a clear understanding of exactly how it’s done.

Big John: So we’ll want Charlene to talk about the disbanding of the taxing people in Deland, the fact that it has been melded into the regular tax operations, and we want to learn about the collection of the taxes, the payment and the break up of the TDT (Tourist Development Taxing Dept.) which is no longer there.

Jim Bazemore: In that report, in the past it has been discussed, how many apartment houses… I know there was a drive at one time and everybody was in compliance, what has been the procedure and what is the ongoing procedure where everybody pays their share?

Big John: Mr. Bazemore, what I’m afraid, and what I’m waiting to hear Mrs. Weaver defend, is the fact that I don’t think we’ve audited anyone in several years. We have people charged to this tax to be audited and I don’t think anybody has been audited in a long time, and that whole department has been decimated so that you might not be getting your money’s worth and let’s hear that from her to see if that’s true.

After some discussion it was decided to have the next meeting on Tuesday, July 16, 2002 at the Ocean Center at 9:00 AM.

The meeting was adjourned at 10:35 AM.

back to county council home page

 

Comments or questions?
E-mail the

Volusia County, Florida.