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Volusia County Tourist Development Council
Meeting Minutes
October 9, 2002 - 9:00 a.m.

Others in attendance:
Frank Gummey, Rick Hamilton, Bob Davis, Gary Brown, John Owens, Lynn Kumpf, Carl Brigandi,Valerie Whitney, Sally Gardiner, George Anderson, Gary R. Libby, Bob Mills, Dan Hunter, John Hunter, Larry Fornari, Jim Wachtel and Dana Smith

Chairman Big John called meeting to order at 9:00 a.m. Minutes of the September 26, 2002 meeting were approved. Big John also suggested that the minutes could be condensed. The motion carried for the minutes to be proofed and condensed by Mr. Hamilton.

Jim Bazemore: Mr. Chairman, I think we have a new member.

Big John: I apologize, Sharon Hughes came to our last meeting, as you remember in a volunteer capacity and she was appropriately approved by the County Council at the last meeting. So now she is a bonafide member of the TDC. OK, Mr. Wachtel.

Frank Gummey suggested for introductions around the room, which was done.

Jim Wachtel: Presentation of a concept plan was presented to the group with a 30,000 square feet ballroom on the South West corner, a 100,000 square feet exhibition hall on the West side, and 40,000 square feet of meeting rooms on the North West corner of the proposed expansion.

A lengthy discussion took place about the proposed design and no consensus was reached. Stuart Arp was opposed to the design as the exhibit space was not located adjacent to the current arena and felt the arena would only be utilized for concerts. It was explained that the arena was utilized for large assembly groups, graduations, concerts, and sporting events which include the National Cheerleader’s Association, the National Drill Team Competition, etc…Mr. Arp still felt it should be adjacent to be used as exhibit space in the event the venue had exhibits in excess of 100,000 square feet. Big John commented that the proposal was the campus program under one roof. Mr. Wachtel responded that no matter what is done that there is three distinct types of space; ball room, meeting rooms and exhibit space and regardless of the arrangement there is and will be three types of space, whether they are under one roof, or separate. He also explained that the campus concept had been rejected and now the group must decide on the three segments location under one roof as per the TDC’s direction. All members provided their input and no decision was reached. The Chair then asked for direction as to what to do next.

Bob Davis: I have been sitting here since the conception of this TDC and going along with these plans and all, and I know that the consultant gave us certain figures. And I know that Evelyn Fine set out some focus groups and she came back with some ideas and Sharon Mock and Sally with the CVB. What I think is lacking here, what’s missing and I think you hit the nail on the head, is the space that is well designed. If you go through Adam’s Mark in Jacksonville, it’s the finest convention hotel that I have ever been to. Next step is asking customers. I have learned that lesson in my life, asking the customer. You can design all the exhibit space and how they flow and I agree with Stuart, coming from a restaurant show with six hundred booths a couple of weeks ago, in Orlando. I think you need to go back to Evelyn Fine, Sally and Sharon, and ask your customers what they think about the exhibit space being on that side or this side and how continuous, what they sell, what they need. I think Jim Bazemore hit it right on the head, exhibits is what pays for it.

Big John: Sally, we have not heard from you and it’s important that we hear from you.

Sally Gardiner: I know that we do focus groups. I think it might be a really good idea to bring some national meeting planners to this table. What better thing than to ask them how other cities do this. They bring them in. It ’s a focus group. It’s the way to get them here number one, expose them to what we are doing, create some awareness and let them have some input into what works in a convention center.

Big John: Do you volunteer to do that?

Sally Gardiner: Absolutely.

Jim Wachtel: First of all, on the consultant’s team we put together, we have TVS from Atlanta. They do convention centers all over the world. They have convention center expertise and we have them on our team. The way that we have phased this design process, is that the next step would be to get together under the leadership of TVS a whole group of people, that would include the CVB, the HBE folks, the Ocean Center and all the users to come together and say "where does this go". We know we need 40,000 square feet of meeting room but is that four different meeting rooms, what is the make-up of that? How much storage do you need? So, we have all that in place ready to go. What we have not had is the commitment from the county yet, because that’s not a simple task, that is not a two-day task that will just allow us magically do this correctly. It’s a large task and we need the commitment from this council and the County Council to go on with the design process to the next step to get these finalized. I said two meetings ago; we have been throwing darts at this problem. It’s time to quit drawing darts and really look at it. That ’s the next phase that we have proposed. It includes the programming and the team meetings in the scope that I gave to Rick some time ago to do that. And then go on to the schematic design phase, because even after you do that, you don’t know how much the thing will cost unless you know what kind of systems you are going to put in here. How do we negotiate with the City about how much parking that we really do need? We don’t really know if we need 1000 cars or 1200 cars or 1500 cars yet. Why? Because we haven’t had the opportunity to put the time in to negotiate with them and to really give them definition on this. So, we got those people in place.

Big John: How much would it cost us, Rick, now we are paying $24K, right? So, the next phase is like quarter of million?

Jim Wachtel: It’s like $100,000 for study of the programming for the community meetings and the traffic impact and parking impact.

 

Jim Bazemore: The County Council would have to approve that, right?

 

Jim Wachtel: That’s correct.

 

Big John: Well, actually it’s the County Council. Rick and his boss Ms. Coto have approved it so far. I don’t feel right this minute very comfortable as to where we are and say let’s spend another $100K until we get just a little bit more agreement at the table, I think, it’s up to you guys.

 

Gilly Aguiar: I agree.

 

Jim Bazemore: Sooner or later, we are going to have to pay for this sucker.

 

Jim Wachtel: You are trying to make a decision without enough information. What do you have first, the information, the funding, or the decision?

 

Big John: We are going to have to have a little more information before we make the decision. Everybody is, Stuart is Gilly is, Jim is, and the Mayor is over here doing his own architectural planning.

 

John Masiarczyk: I have been here a year and we are back to square one where we started. It’s a little discouraging. We are now talking about bringing on other people. Stuart, you are not very comfortable with this thing here. With the experience you have had and your firm, and there are some other people here, far be it for me to say. I wouldn’t vote for it in a heartbeat after what I have heard now.

 

Big John: Stuart, you give us a plan.

 

Jim Wachtel: We are going to come up with a revision to this scheme. And I will review that with Stuart and John and Rick, and get everybody together on a sub-committee and come back.

 

Big John: Rick, we had some different facility layouts in a handout we got three or four months ago. It wasn’t exactly the same situation that we are talking about, but can you reproduce those for us to look at. Can we do that? Can we do that for the next meeting? Stuart, how much time do you need for your folks to get serious and get us a plan?

 

Stuart Arp: Probably a month. They’ve got it. I mean they have what we have handed out two weeks ago. I’m not going to send this out because I know what the answer is going to be.

 

Big John: John, do you know TVS the group Wachtel mentioned?

 

John Hunter: Yes, they are very good.

 

Big John: Would a month give you enough time to send it to somebody?

 

John Hunter: Yes it would.

 

Big John: Would you get with Rick to make sure, and Gary and Bob and anybody that wants to, let them know what the most beautiful, perfect convention site layout is?

 

Stuart Arp: This is unique. We’ve got this building. If we were going to start from scratch and build this whole thing over, it would be a different look, but we are stuck with this building and I think we utilize it.

 

Big John: Anybody that is new, we went through a study of tearing this building down, retrofitting this building. We went through a lot of time devoting time to should we keep this building or should we try to change this building and the decision was made that we were going build onto it.

 

 

 

Gilly Aguiar: A part of the thing is that I don’t think that we design it. We know from the focus groups, and what we looked at in Johnson’s report, and that’s what we are trying to retrofit into this building, but I don’t think that we need to come to this table and actually design it. That’s why we go out to the groups that we got. We just know that as far as the people flow, to try to be able to use both at the same time.

 

Big John: We sent Wachtel out to design it. Then he comes back and we beat him up.

 

Jim Wachtel: Well, let me offer one more chance to get beat up. I think we got all comments here today that we need to put this into an arrangement that is going to satisfy everybody. I don’t think that we need to spend another month doing this. I think that we can do this within next week. All the pieces and parts are here. I can meet with Stuart and whoever else.

 

Big John: I want to get a response from Stuart’s people. Because it’s free and I want to see what they say. We are spending fifty million bucks, three weeks doesn’t make a difference.

 

Lori Campbell-Baker: Right. Ultimately, I think that a great thing would be to have a plan that we here agree on and Sally’s point, take it to the meeting planners and let them beat it to death and if it comes out good, then we go with it. It can’t hurt to be too cautious.

 

Stuart Arp: Right, and we have a few folks here in Daytona that are on our back door that do big trade shows and one is Capco and another one is Florida Fire Chief’s Association, which is based here. These are just two people that do big trade shows and we can start with them.

 

Big John: Would you put that on your list, to invite them to our next meeting?

 

Stuart Arp: Absolutely.

 

Big John: Would that be good? Would anybody else like to comment on where we are at? OK, so then we will have another meeting in about a month and we will have Mr. Wachtel come back with a super plan. Stuart will come back with a super plan from his folks. We’ll have six, or whatever Rick will find, but at least four or five plans of other places so that we can compare our super plan to other plans. It would be good, if we could get those here at this building so that members of the hotel-motel and other interested parties, Sally, certainly Mock would be able to come by here and look at the other plans than just come to the meeting cold. Or Gilly, you certainly have great interest in this, and anyone that wants to come over and take a look, so that maybe we can think about it before the meeting. Does everyone agree to that?

 

Rick Hamilton: We will display them in a meeting room where each of you can come by and take a look at your convenience a week before the meeting.

 

Big John: OK, does everyone agree on that? So, our plan is to come back to the next meeting with a super plan from Wachtel, a plan from Stuart, other plans of other buildings that everybody agrees is comparable. Is that where we are headed? OK, everybody agrees. First thing we agreed on all day. I’m happy about that. OK, now for a little more disagreement, Mr. Gummey.

 

Frank Gummey: I had faxed out to the members of the council my memo, but in case you did not bring it with you, I’ll pass around some copies. Mr. Masiarczyk asked about the possibility of using TDT, tourist development tax, for a feasibility study for Southwest Volusia that is being pursued with the municipalities down there and my conclusion was that the county code provisions concerning the use of TDT proceeds and the bond covenants for this facility would argue against using TDT for that purpose.

 

John Masiarczyk: It was a well written memo, and I thank you very much. It helped a lot and I concur, so does your former attorney and our attorney.

 

Mr. Masiarczyk further explained his position and reasoning.

 

Gilly Aguiar: Isn’t it possible for them to take the penny on the West Volusia side and put that towards bonds for something? Is that what that means, Gummey?

 

Frank Gummey: I would think so. You are talking about $120,000 a year; I mean that’s barely going to pay a mortgage on a strip mall.

 

John Masiarczyk: We are talking about various ideas and using that money being leverage with grants and other things down there. I think that we have a real opportunity to use that money toward other things long term.

 

Frank Gummey: Remember that the TDT just didn’t pay for capital; it provides a subsidy for operations that none of these facilities pay towards.

 

Big John: I kind of think that John’s talking about the kind of thing that we have at the AG Center.

 

John Masiarczyk: Mr. Rawls is here and I mentioned it to him also. When you look at West Volusia which is starting new, which is the problem you are having right now you are expanding an old building. The AG Center has a large facility there. In my opinion, and please understand I don’t want to be labeled as having anything to do with the fair association, the AG center or anything else, but it doesn’t have the convention/seminar type mentality. There is a possibility for a little money, and I am not talking about chunk change of money, that facility could be enlarged and really be advantageous to West Volusia. Now, whether the other cities will go along, is whether a consultant will say that it is a good idea, but it is an opportunity over there to put something very nice. You could get from the Volusia County fairgrounds facility into Deltona in matter of seconds. Where we used to have to go up to I-4 and all the way around. That road is not utilized, for most people it’s kind of like a hidden road. Most people don’t know how to get there. But it is really a great avenue to get people through there. So, there are some advantages for all of us to work together. We would be competing if we built a similar facility.

 

Big John: Do you agree, Mr. Gummey that we need to change that verbiage? Do you think that is something that the County Council should do?

 

Frank Gummey: That’s a policy issue, but it may be an academic question. If we pursue the expansion of this facility, you are going to pledge TDT for this facility, plus you will need what is not used for debt service, for the operations of this facility and there wouldn’t be any money there. This is a practical matter. If you expand this facility, there will not be any money in the two cents for any other purpose.

 

Big John: John is saying that if we took his $150,000 a year and fixed the AG Center that would …

 

John Masiarczyk: No, John is not saying that. John is saying that there are many options out there. What I am saying is that the two cents is committed to the Ocean Center, reducing the debt on the Ocean Center. That’s what this ordinance has set up. I am not trying to get into that barrel, don’t get me wrong. What I am saying is, whatever we do is going to affect this to some degree. Now, when you are talking about spending fifty million dollars to enlarge this building and we only touch it at one tenth of the percent, it’s going to affect it. So, why not for such a small amount of money being involved in overall planning for the entire county, we don’t know what would come out of if. As West Volusia grows, we are up to 120,000, we take ten years from now when this building maybe open, or five or whatever, we are growing at a rate of three to four thousand people a year in that area, so it’s growing steadily all the time. And I just think that it’s time that we look at it.

 

Big John: But, by changing the verbiage, would it allow them to ask for $10,000 for planning money? Is that what you are saying, Mr. Gummey?

 

Frank Gummey: Well, you also have the bond coverage. Is it appropriate to be spending TDT to be pursuing what is going to be a competing facility?

 

John Masiarczyk: According to this, it says that you can have multiple facilities as long as it is for the same purpose. The line that I have is, all sums required to build facilities, necessary for successful sports, cultural, conventions accomplished within the Halifax area. That’s the statement that keeps you from extending. The Ocean Center as we determined was a countywide plan. Don’t forget, this was done back in the 80’s. This was county wide plan, there was nothing over there. Inadvertently, the language used was "for the Halifax area", because that was the tourist area. We now have five times the hotels; I think we only had one back then. I am just saying that it is growing and I don’t want to go out of the office without really just asking you to look at it. It is a part of the county. It should not be left out. Those people in West Volusia, although it is a minor chuck of money have been paying to keep this building over twenty years. I just think that it needs to be looked at in the spirit of cooperation.

 

Big John: What I am trying to do, is to find out if we should change the verbiage, I think we should change it, but if we can’t give him the $10,000 here, then I’ll bring it from the County Council.

 

John Masiarczyk: The County could be a member. I wanted to offer it to you when we got into this language. And thank you Mr. Gummey, because it pointed out very clearly. But I think if the County changed that name, in the future you could look at it again. Now, we are moving on, but I am saying, this verbiage needs to be changed.

 

Lori Campbell-Baker: I agree that there is a need for the facility, but the question that was made last time is, is it a tourism based need? Or is it in fact for high school graduations or that sort of thing that would be better accomplished with money from the County Council and money from the different cities. We have the hotel rooms to build a facility over there.

 

John Masiarczyk: If there is nothing there, why would you build a hotel? If we don’t get a facility over there to be able to draw people in there.

 

Lori Campbell-Baker: But if you had an Adam’s Mark, I’m just using Adam’s Mark, to build a meeting facility, then you would have the hotel and you would have the facility, but to build a facility without having the hotel rooms to back it up…

 

John Masiarczyk: We have not even looked at location or anything, we are just…

 

Mayor Erwin: We just put out an RFP for a feasibility study. John is just looking down the road a little bit, assuming that the feasibility study is going to tell us that there is a need for it and we should go ahead. We are at the baby steps right now and we all have our own ideas of what will work in that area, but again, we are not the experts. We just looked at this and said it would be nice if we had this or that. The reason that we wanted to go ahead with this study and come back to us say, you guys are blowing smoke or yes, there is something that could work in this area, if, if, if…So, that’s were we are at right now. And as far as going ahead with the study, we are going to do it.

 

John Masiarczyk: That arena would serve us for many, many years. We don’t even want anything that big. That’s not what we are looking at, but we are looking at UCF and the growth DBCC, we are just looking at the solid growth of West Volusia. There is obviously a need there for something. And we are talking about bringing people in, tourism. We’ve got to do something with the lake front; we’ve got to do something with St. John’s River. Everybody who talks about tourism, talks about those things. We have to be looking as a community for a facility to bring these people in. With that will come the hotel/motel rooms. We can’t bring them in if we can’t offer them anything. You are not going to get people to come there, unless there is something to offer.

 

Big John: Are you still looking for $10,000 or not?

 

John Masiarczyk: Yes, but we asked the County to participate and my job was, because of the caveat that the City of DeBary had in our group, they said, that they would approve it only if we bring it to you and the County and the TDC.

 

Big John: Right now we are not going to give you any money from this group. Can we do a motion to ask the County Council to look at the issue, would that be appropriate?

 

Frank Gummey: Does that fall under the function of this Committee?

 

Lori Campbell-Baker: If we can’t give them the money, can you just mention it to them?

 

Big John: I’m going to.

 

John Masiarczyk: Let me just ask you a question, what I am curious about is, I am not hearing anyone in here who really feels like they want to know anything that’s going on down there. And that’s what I thought would be the most exciting thing. Maybe I am missing something, but I thought that you would be very interested in what we do down there just for the sake of how it effects what you are doing over here. But I am not hearing it.

 

Lori Campbell-Baker: When it was first brought out, what I was hearing was that we have to come over here for high school stuff, or whatever, and I’m just not able to get past that.

 

John Masiarczyk: Well, get past that, because only issue over there right now is, because we don’t have the facility that the kids have to come over here to graduate. That’s the only issue that you are hearing in public. What I am getting at is to build West Volusia to have it be economic basis, and for tourism we need a facility. We have been asked repeatedly by the businesses over there, why don’t you have a facility, we bring in 500, 600 people.

 

Lynn Kumpf: This past weekend we did not have room for 250 people for dinner, so we had to cram 135 tables and 300 something chairs to the marina as you go out State Route 44, across in to Lake County. These are people that are coming from all over the United States to write about this area to bring tourism here. There is no facility that can handle more than 100 people. Ocean Design, we were going to be one of their host hotels and their answer to me was, well, Lynn, why don’t you have the space, your rooms are great, your meals are great your presentation great, but when it comes to major events, you are going to loose us to Hyatt in Sanford because we can’t have that many people for functions. There is just no availability. Our property is fully developed; there is no place to grow.

 

John Masiarczyk: We are a residential community and that’s what you hear. We in politics, the government are trying to look at the future, we are looking at expanding and we have to or you’ll have one of the most depressed areas in Volusia County which would cost everyone on the East side, if we don’t do something about the growth out there and get some of it channeled properly. Environmentally, we have a lot of concerns down there and I know that those have to be addressed, but that place has to grow. If it doesn’t grow, it dies.

 

Darlene Yordon: Isn’t there a group in the DeBary area looking to do some type of cultural/art facility?

 

Mayor Erwin: Yes. You could actually go back a couple of years and say that, that made us start thinking when the cultural/art was looking for facilities.

 

John Masiarczyk: Yeah, Tippin got them pumped up and excited. They started talking. They had no facility whatsoever, and I think they now use a bank, don’t they, to meet in. We have a small facility in downtown where the city has done some things on a small scale, but nothing of the magnitude we need down there. And this is were it rubs you, there is a serious need for the people that are here, but on top of that, more importantly, this large facility whatever it is has to be there for us to grow.

 

John Owens: One of the things that I am looking at and thinking about when I have seen this about a facility in west side, is we have the infrastructure already set there, thanks to the County, we have buildings, expansion is minimal compared to what you are talking about here, my concern is, soon that bridge opens up there is going to flood of development. Right now, Rick and Chad and I are working with the Expo Center over there because as this facility books more events, the smaller events that have been coming here, can’t get the dates anymore because the larger, bigger events are coming in. As you expand this facility, there is going to be more of that. In order to keep up with it, we are getting some of these shows on the west side already. I know it has nothing to do the TDC directly, but it is when you do one thing, it impacts the whole area. I am looking at that facility over there with the location, land and the buildings as being a very viable possibility. And I agree with John, we really have to look at this, because it’s going to impact that facility over there.

 

Sharon Hughes: I have not attended a lot of these, but I don’t know that it is such an east vs. west or that there is no interest here for the west side. I don’t see that. I think that they really just don’t know what we are going through in the west or maybe we just need to bring more information and introduce them to some of our needs. Because I think they will be more than glad to work with us. Maybe it is the idea of a fair and possibly in the name. The Expo Center that might give it a little bit different spin because it is a wonderful facility and we might be able to do more things in that direction. I really think that if we bring everybody over here for more information on what is happening in West Volusia, they will be glad to hear from us.

 

Stuart Arp: I agree, that the west side is becoming something of their own and they have needs and interest and what have you and if I was sitting over there, and I was taxing my tourists to help pay for this, I might have a problem with that. This rule doesn’t affect you all out there. Maybe this needs to be carved out, they have their tax dollars, they tax base for whatever they want to do and we break them off this situation because the population is going that way. And as we have these committees and don’t take this wrong, sometimes we get slowed down a little bit because of the needs that they have and this facility’s best interest and visa versa. Maybe at some point we need to look at carving it out.

 

Big John: I will, on October 17, ask the County Council if this could be obtained. The request from west side cities to fund $10,000 toward research project, the feasibility study. And we decide that it is not appropriate to come from this committee.

 

John Masiarczyk: And also if they would look at the original ordinance that set this up, because it is going to come up. The reason that I wanted to bring it to you earlier, we said, eventually there is going to be a group or individual down there that is going to say, we have been paying, so we wanted to bring it forward. Now is a good time to address it rather than when our consultant’s study comes back and says, we can build this 4.2 million dollar building and here is how we are going to fund it. The first thing they are going to look at is what revenues we have.

 

Big John: Your two cents is tied up until 2013, it’s not tied up after that.

 

Frank Gummey: I am not sure you ought to look at that ordinance in a vacuum, I think probably the time to look at it is when you are considering the financing of this facility.

 

John Masiarczyk: I will never support changing or even attempt changing what was past years ago. You need it, the money until 2013. But there are conditions that could be changed that allow a greater flow of information by just taking the word Halifax out of there, because of the change in times. This is twenty years later; let’s look at it with new perspective.

 

Lori Campbell-Baker: I agree that there have been a lot of critical views of the west side, and I hate to see the whole east side, west side thing, because I think we have worked very hard amongst the advertising authorities and the cities

 

 

 

in general to really think about ourselves as countywide. But I do agree that some point there is going to be a need that is tourist driven and it may be now, and you are absolutely right, we probably need a lot more information than we have right now.

 

Big John: Are we done with this subject now? Any old business? Any new business?

 

Next meeting was scheduled for Wednesday, November 20, 2002, 9:00 a.m. at the Ocean Center. Mr. Hamilton is to notify by e-mail when and where the plans are going to be displayed.

 

The meeting was adjourned at 10:35 a.m.

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