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Volusia County Tourist Development Council
Meeting Minutes
December 17, 2002 - 9:00 a.m.

Others in attendance:
Frank Gummey, Rick Hamilton, Dana Smith, Jim Wachtel, Rick Prioletti, Valerie Whitney, Bob Mills, Paul Politis, Sharon Mock, Ben Carvagno, Amy Weinbender, George Mirabal,  Robert Boggs, Chad Smith, Joseph Yelvington, Bob Davis, Tony Mazulo and Bob Guest

Chairman Big John called the meeting to order at 9:10 a.m. Minutes from the November 20, 2002 meeting were approved.  Big then introduced Jim Wachtel and asked him to explain what he wanted to accomplish.

Jim Wachtel:  We have a model here for you to look at.  Essentially, we haven't changed anything from the last presentation. Just for the benefit of the audience and as recall, I'll go over the design. The scope of the project is to add 100,000 square feet of exhibition space, 40,000 square feet of meeting rooms, and 30,000 square feet of ballroom with a 10,000 square foot kitchen. This also includes, in addition to that, a 35% allocation of the total space will be the bathrooms, registration and pre-function, circulation space that goes in there. After looking at several options over the past several months, the schemes that we have shown here in a model form and on the drawings, is to have the exhibition space on the North side, backing up to Earl St. with the loading and the storage coming off Earl and Hollywood and the exhibition space is about 500 ft. long and 200 ft. deep. So, we have about 500 feet of loading and storage. The ballroom is located at the corner of Wild Olive and Auditorium, such that we are caddy corner from the Peabody Auditorium to get a lot of activity through that area. And then, to the West of that is the kitchen and 40,000 square feet of meeting space.  All of these are connected by the pre-function space, which is the central corridor and spine, running East-West from essentially the centerline of the present Ocean Center through to Hollywood. There are two pedestrian access points, one right across from the Peabody, the other directly north of that off Earl Street, coming through a corridor and pre-function space. So, essentially you can circulate through the building to go both to the Auditorium, which can be closed off and secured for one activity or go to the convention center or into any other venues which could be operating individually or collectively as one large meeting space.  The parking is obviously going away as we are taking the two lots, which are presently West off the Ocean Center and going to increase the load of parking. So, what we have proposed is a garage and this shows four levels that is immediately West of the Peabody Auditorium. This is land that the county now owns, 85% I believe, and would enhance the Main Street area as well as the Ocean Center and the Peabody Auditorium. We haven't defined exactly how much parking needs to go in here, but this represents about 1,250 cars.  Jim explained that, both, Oleander and Wild Olive would be blocked off right behind the Ocean Center.  Oleander would actually become the entrance and exit point to the parking garage on Main Street and Auditorium.

Rick Hamilton:  The garage will not be on Main Street, but where Oleander now comes off Main Street, you would go in there to the backs of the storefronts, and that would be the entrance to this parking garage. The actual foot print is from the back of the storefronts on Main Street as the Southern boundary, to Hollywood on the West, to Auditorium on the North, and to Wild Olive on the East.

Jim Bazemore:  And right now we are not doing anything about the ballroom, right?

Jim Wachtel:  Yes. This is the phase the Council wanted to see Phase I, which would be the exhibition space and the meeting room space, and also to build a parking garage in Phase I. Phase II would be to put in a ballroom at that time when funding is available. The cost for Phase I is approximately $40,500,000 with the parking garage and approximately $10,000,000 in Phase II for the ballroom.

Tom Staed:  Is the 500 feet x 200 feet the optimum size for the exhibit hall? I guess I am asking Stuart that question. It seems that the rectangle is longer than it ought to be.

Stuart Arp:  I think Rick should answer that. 

Rick Hamilton:  It is long and narrow. Tom, it's the only way that it would fit on that site in this configuration with the Exhibit Hall to the North. It should be wider, more like 300 x 500, or in that ratio. The ideal ratio is the length should be no more than twice the width.

Tom Staed:  If it is doable, I think it's something you ought to look at, because I think that is long and thin.

Rick Hamilton:  Jim and I have discussed and they kept it as close to a square as possible in this configuration and I am not convinced this is the right design.

Gilly Aguiar:  Maybe you can accomplish that by pulling it East a little bit and have meeting rooms kind of around it.

Jim Wachtel:  Another thing about the exhibition space is that it wants to be sub-divided into three different venues. So, if you do that, then you'll have some space, it's about 200 by 167, which comes close to a square. But I think that is adjustable within the process. One of the design challenges here is that we have basically three large blocks of space, and that's what it is going to be.  Three spaces; this is the ballroom, this is the meeting room and this is the exhibition, so you can turn them around. They can be resized and repositioned as best meets the function. This seemed like the best at the meeting a couple of months ago. I think that we need to really look at this and see if this is the best way. Is the ballroom going to function well next to the Peabody Auditorium or is there a need for meeting rooms. I think that's where the community stake holders and people using this are going to better answer that.

Big John:  Also, Mr. Staed, Wachtel has engaged some designer whom Stuart seemed to like and we also had Jon Hunter here and he liked it.

Rick Hamilton:  The perimeter footprint is basically the same no matter how we rearrange the interior space.

Gilly Aguiar:  My question is the parking. I don't really see us having enough parking with the garage we have and one new one. Do we need to bring players to the table in this phase to talk about the lot that Stuart has over here?

Big John:  I think that the city is going to have a lot to do with that. 

Gilly Aguiar:  I think the parking is going to be a major issue, so we need to address that so that everybody is on the same page.

Big John: The city has agreed to offer the services of the team.

Gilly Aguiar:  The other issue is the parking for exhibitors and trucks. You said that was 500 x 200, the loading?

Jim Wachtel:  Yes, right now.

Gilly Aguiar:  I just told Jim on the way in, I just went to a convention at Orange County and I know it's a different animal, but when you go to a convention there now, you have to park at the Omni. That's as close as you can get. By 9 a.m. the exhibitors have the whole back parking lot full. So, there is an issue that we have got to take in to count in the first level.

Jim Wachtel:  Our next step in the planning processes before we call it programming and master plan, that's basically two different activities. One with Thompson, Venulette & Steinbeck and us, we'll meet with all the stakeholders, Convention & Visitors Bureau, The Adam's Mark, the Ocean Center people and develop what are the functions that we need, how much storage are we going to have, where those activities are going to take place. I think it is a general thought, that as long as we have enough space for the trucks to circulate to get in and then to get out, they can park on an off-site facility and that's what they do now. The other part of our first activity in the master planning, is a traffic study and the traffic impact study. How much parking are we going to have to have? How many people are going to come here? How are they going to get in and how are they going to get out?  So, working with the city planning and the traffic people, we will determine what we can accommodate in this garage and how it will function and what its projections are for the future. We also have plans for other parking venues throughout this area.  All those things are to be taken into consideration. This is just one part of the puzzle. All the activity that we want to develop on the Main Street, the new redevelopment area, Stuart's new space, all the Ocean Walk space. It is a large complex and this is just one piece of it. So, that's going to be studied and answers given in the next phase.

Gilly Aguiar:  The other question I had was for Rick and we were trying to do that, is to try to figure out what a full convention center is going to cost to run? Like if you had 260 dates.

Rick Hamilton:  In fixed staffing and in utility costs, it's approximately $400,000 additional annually. That's for increased sales staff and increased utilities. Everything else we use part-time labor and those costs are charged back to the actual event.

Lori Campbell-Baker:  How much additional income?

Rick Hamilton:  I'm not sure. I will have to get you an estimate for the next meeting.

Big John:  Any other questions from the board? At this time, Mr. Boggs, Mr. Prioletti, would you like to say anything?

Rick Prioletti: Rick asked that we attend your meeting and give you our prospective on what you all are doing. Obviously, this is a piece of a bigger pie, which is the Main Street entertainment, redevelopment area, the coastal area of Volusia County, the core entertainment area for tourism and convention industry in Volusia County. Some time ago, when we developed a redevelopment plan, a part of that exercise said that we needed in this area these types of facilities. This is a great location. And our comprehensive plan followed up and said this area is where we would have the public area, the entertainment facilities to accommodate the objectives of strengthening tourist economy here.

Big John:  What are your objectives?

Rick Prioletti:  Strengthening the tourist economy. The next step in the legal process is, the city issued some time ago when the Ocean Center was built, a public use ordinance to define the boundaries of Ocean Center uses. The underline zoning doesn't identify use. I think that the biggest impact here is going to be parking and traffic. And not just the Ocean Center, but the whole redevelopment. We recognized that as the city that it's very important. We had set aside some money to do a parking study, the redevelopment of parking. The economic impacts you are trying to determine. The traffic and it's impacts that have to be studied, that might lead to redevelopment of one way streets, might lead to intersection improvements, might lead to widening streets. We just don't know, and that's why you have to have experts to look into that.

Big John:  Of course the experts are going to know that we started off with those two streets.  It might have a negative effect.

Rick Prioletti:  Well, you start off with those streets, you limit your options. You seem to have a pretty well fixed location, before you spent much time looking what your options are. Probably as a result, property will become available and now is the time to take action acquiring those properties. So, you can understand our side of that too. You defined your product and now you are having to engineer it to make it work. That is basically your next step.

Lori Campbell-Baker:  Are you saying that we shouldn't have looked at street closings yet, that we should have looked at your study first?

Rick Prioletti:  Well, one of the things that we had in mind was to do master parking planning for this area. You had asked what we had in mind and we had our parking facilities prepared.  This is a very detailed, long-range exercise to plan the parking and traffic in the area. This is the draft that you received (the handout). It has not gone yet to City Commission review.

Big John:  What is your timeframe on that?

Rick Prioletti:  We are waiting to see how you folks receive this and if you
want to be part of this exercise and contribute to it.

Big John:  This is $91,500 and you are saying you want the county to contribute to it.  How much?

John Masiarczyk:  $91,500.

Lori Campbell-Baker:  How much are we going to benefit?

Big John:  What is it going to take to make this happen? This needs to happen, right?

Rick Prioletti:  I think so. I would envision it as a partnership between the county, the city and the property owners in this area contributing to this, because that is who is going to benefit from this. 

Big John:  So do you want a half? What do you want?

Rick Prioletti:  A half would be good.

Big John:  So we got a deal. Wachtel you had two contracts, right. The first one was $24,000+, the other one was $6,000. So, we spent thirty grand on this thing already and they want another $345,000, so, we are going to have $375,000 in it so, this is kind of miniscule, so, if we are going to do it, let's get done with it.

Frank Gummy:  I don't have a thorough understanding between this study and the traffic study and parking garage that Jim was doing. It seems like duplication to me.

Big John: Do you guys know that?

Rick Prioletti:  Yes we do. What we are saying is traffic work that they would normally be doing.

Jim Wachtel:  If Rick wasn't doing his parking study, we have to do traffic and parking analyses for our use. That is part of the $345. Rick's parking study includes all the Main Street and other redevelopment areas. I don't know if the scope of his work included what we have. If his scope included all the traffic planning for this, parking for this, then the answer is yes. We are only going to do that once. But what I understood, that parking study to be is for the other areas around this, which are not county areas and which are Ocean Center areas. That is a whole separate parking area. 

Lori Campbell-Baker:  But weren't we saying what Jim is doing and what Rick was doing, let's not duplicate, isn't that were we are?

Big John:  Exactly. So, let's say you don't want any more than $45,750 and it will be determined in negotiation between you, Hamilton and Wachtel; therefore, we don't do two parking studies. Whatever part is ours we'll pay.

A discussion followed regarding the Boardwalk project the City is working on and if a traffic study would be done for the project and could the whole area be incorporated. Rick Prioletti said that it was his understanding that they would not have to do a study.  The project is being put together and the City Commission is going to have a contract for the project.   Prioletti would be checking on whether a study could be done to incorporate the whole area.

John Masiarczyk:  How do we move forward on Wachtel's request of $345,000 if the parking study could indicate a necessity to change work that he would be doing at the same time on this layout?

Big John:  I don't think that at this time we are prepared to go ahead with the $345. We'll go to the County Council on Thursday. All that I was trying to do was sort of firm up where we are today and then ask the County Council on Thursday. Now that they want to spend $345 and that could be their agenda tomorrow and you don't have to have one more agenda item, it's not there. And so, I believe that would become in January or afterwards.  Is that all you had, Mr. Wachtel.

Darlene Yordon:  I would really like to have the Commission included, because it is the same time we are working on the Boardwalk project and if the whole area could be expanded. It would go right in line with our Boardwalk. I would really like to see us follow through and include the Commission and maybe then we could take some actions in expanding the area and making the commitment like we have done with the Boardwalk.

Tom Staed:  It is impossible not to combine all three of the studies and to get anything that is useful. You are going to have to take care of the Boardwalk and whatever they are going to do over there, you've got the Main Street area and you've got the Ocean Center and all three of them combined and combined even with what Stuart's got right now. It's his parking facility or at least a certain number of them are his and we have to continue to provide him with that. So it goes all the way back to the Ocean Walk. There are really four parts to this parking issue as I see it. 

Gilly Aguiar:  We did say that this would all be done in unison.

Big John:  Tom, you said that the four areas were?

Tom Staed:  The Ocean Walk, which you have now, this end of the Ocean Walk, and the Boardwalk which is a second separate area, then Main Street is a separate area, and the project we are trying to do is a whole separate area. There probably are more, but those four are all tied together in a radius were we are sitting.

Gilly Aguiar:  And it is going to leap north too, because of thoroughfares.

Big John:  Ms. Mock, would you like to comment? I mean, are you satisfied with your area?

Sharon Mock:  Yes.

Big John:  OK. And by the way, for the record, Ms. Mock's CVB will be incorporated into this plan, so, that she and Mr. Hamilton will be closer together. OK, let's see, Hotel/Motel, Mr. Davis.

Bob Davis:  I have been to every meeting, and as Mr. Staed said, he missed something, and I missed it too. The 40.5 million dollars, where are we getting it from? How is it coming to the table?

Big John:  As I believe, we gained a little bit of money when we refinanced, so that 13 million is probably $15,000,000 we have available right now in bonds and the rest would be one penny.  So, you are talking about 25 million coming out of one penny. We had that report a long time ago.  It's probably safe to say that Hotel/Motel, although you haven't voted on it, there will be some discontent with that third penny.

Bob Davis:  Well, they haven't really been brought in to the picture. We haven't had clear concise definition. They are kind of waiting to see. You can't put the cart before the horse, in other words we need to see what the size of the cost is going to be, and how it's going to be paid for.

Big John:  Well, we tried to invite.

Bob Davis:  It's not that. It's just that you folks have had a lot on the table and you have been working on that and I think you have done a great job.

Big John:  Well, I don't know when the right time would be because I won't be here after the first of the year, but I will tell you that somewhere I would say close in, there will be a decision to do it or not do it and get on with life. Because due diligence has been done this year and I think that 's good enough. We have tried every other form of raising money and there were no other available monies to be raised, so, I think there is no other choice but the one penny.

Tom Staed:  What are the boundaries on the one penny, different from the original two pennies?

Big John:  Yes, because we were going to carve out southeast Volusia and West Volusia so that they could have. I mean it will go up in those places as well, but just that they would have their own monies for local projects. John had a little verbiage that he wants. Do you know what John was talking about Mr. Gummey?

John Masiarczyk:  You were supposed to do that from last month. 

Big John:  I know. Why don't you tell Gummey what it is that you need.

John Masiarczyk:  The ordinance you brought to us and I agreed with your findings and all and withdrew my request, but if you go back to the original comments that I made, the one area in there, in talking to our attorney, it seems needs an adjustment if for no other reason but for historical perspective on county look today versus twenty years ago, is the section that says for the Halifax area only. That has to be changed to make this even work. That term Halifax area is going to have to come out of there, because the way it's in there now, non-competing with Halifax area of TDC. Do you know what I am talking about, the verbiage? And if we are a full county, why should we have a separate part of the county. And then the argument is, that if we don't change that, why was all Volusia County contributing these last twenty years and all of sudden..It's not that we want the money or change it, but the language should be changed in there so that this competing, non-competing East and West is not an issue.

Tom Staed:  Is that in the statute?

John Masiarczyk:  It's in the county legislation.

Frank Gummey:  I haven't discussed it, whether it could be changed or not.

John Masiarczyk:  That was the question. We were going to find out so that the County Council members could understand it so that they could look at it. And County Council may have, there maybe additional language rather than just striking one or two words, there might be language that has to be put in there that until your original bonds are satisfied. It shouldn't trigger all future work. You know, if we are wanting to do something over in that area and wanted to use Tourist Development money or our portion on the West side, we couldn't do it right now because we would be in competition with Halifax area.

Big John:  What John is saying is that in 2013 when the bond issue runs out, to have money available for different parts of the county.

Frank Gummey:  The financing is predicated. That money that we are talking about is predicated countywide.

John Masiarczyk:  Please don't misunderstand me; I don't want to stop that.

Frank Gummey:  We are talking about using the entire taxing capacity for a 30 year debt that is two per cent countywide.

John Masiarczyk:  For the entire 30 years?  That isn't going to fly. That would be the original intent of the County Council when they did this was to build this current facility. Now if you are talking about countywide support in addition to this facility past 2013 the original commitment that is something that has to be discussed.

Darlene Yordon:  How much impact would something like that have on this project? Do we have any idea of the numbers?

Big John:  Well, Charlene knows, do you know Frank?

Frank Gummey:  Third penny is 25, that's all you'll get.

Big John:  That could be 15 million.

Frank Gummey:  That is using the existing two cents, pushing it out thirty years.

Tom Staed:  But you wouldn't have to do the new penny and the two in other two districts.

Frank Gummey:  That's what I say, Tom.

Gilly Aguiar:  If you go and say that you are going to put that penny across the board and give it to those districts, there will be people just pushing to build things that they don't really need at this time. I know they would be building something in southeast that they don't need.

Big John:  We determined when we met with your Chair down there, and with your executive director, if she is still down there, and the fact is that you don't have enough hotels rooms to build anything.

Frank Gummey:  That's the thing, I question whether you repeat levying in the southeast because I don't think it would generate enough to do anything. One possibility that I know of is a possibility of doing something in an annex center there. That might be something that you can produce enough money to do. But your survey, $400,000 a year, whatever it is,

Gilly Aguiar:  It's roughly $500,000 in the southeast and what, $300,000 in the West.

Frank Gummey:  No, it's $100,000 in West Volusia.

Gilly Aguiar:  I mean the two cents that is coming out, is roughly about $850,000.

John Masiarczyk:  Mr. Gummey, can I get something clear before I go back to my commission? As you understand it right now, the intent with the numbers that we were shown by Ms. Weaver before, were to include continual participation of the entire county for retiring of the debt. Even if they rebound, we would continue to pay the two percents for this facility on east  side? That's where there is probably going to be considerable disagreement by the west side. They don't mind their contractual obligation if you will, for the original debt, but I think the constant refinancing and incurring more debt for this long of period of time is something that should be discussed by the County Council.

Big John:  We will have to bring that up this Thursday. I asked them to put it on the agenda for the County Council just to let them know what we were doing. There is not going to be any action taken. OK, now we go to the Chamber. George would you like to comment on the project?

George Mirabal:  The Chamber has always been for the expansion of yours. Since 1994 when the vision was developed for this one-mile area, part of that puzzle was the expansion of the Ocean Center.  We are not involved with what you are involved with here, all we are saying is to be able to support the new hotel rooms and all the other things that are going on, we needed to expand the Ocean Center to, hopefully bring in new conventions, not just tourists. We think that's important.  We have talked to the County Council for the last three years, it is critical that they continue moving forward on this.

Big John:  Thank you very much, Main Street merchants.

Tom Guest:  Thank you Mr. Chair. I have a couple of questions. Rick Prioletti's comments about traffic and parking, of course, are our main concerns. The garage that you think is going to block Oleander and going all the way from Wild Olive to Hollywood, as I understand, will that be blocking Auditorium also?

Jim Wachtel:  Auditorium stays open.

Tom Guest:  Is it necessary to block off Wild Olive Avenue? 

Big John:  It is one building.

Tom Guest:  Developing activities on Main Street, what does that have to do with that?

Jim Wachtel:  That has nothing to do with the Ocean Center, however, the parking study that the City is planning to do, is in support of the continued redevelopment of Main Street and the activities there as well as that parking garage.

Tom Guest:  You are still going to have traffic on Main Street? Main Street is not going to be blocked off in any way?

Jim Wachtel:  Not that we know.

Big John:  That doesn't have anything to do with our project, Tom. We are just acknowledging the fact that anything that we do will have an impact on Main Street.

Tom Guest:  The garage is going to be built over here. This is going all the way from Auditorium, are there any plans for the houses that are over there? 

Big John:  They will all eventually be bought.

Tom Guest:  This garage, when is this going to be put in?  Is this Phase I or is it Phase II?

Rick Hamilton:  The garage is in Phase I.

Big John:  Yes, we have to have the garage to build the building. We are taking up a lot of parking spaces that are underneath the building,

Tom Guest:  The garage would be a wonderful thing. We would be able to park a lot of motorcycles there, very quietly. Is this going to, in any way, affect Biketoberfest and Bike Week events?

Big John:  Well, it's going to be a bigger venue. Mr. Hamilton has told us that Harley has said they'll take size building, so they are going to expand out.

Gilly Aguiar:  It'll enhance it, Tom, a lot. Especially with the hotels and so forth, this will become a complete walking district.

Darlene Yordon:  Main Street could be year around with this convention center.

Tom Guest:  As long as that is part of the first phase, because the garage that Gilly was talking about had been intended 18 years ago to be built here was never built, that's what we were told on Main Street was going to happen. I certainly would like to see a garage. It's something that has been needed. Parking and traffic is the biggest problem. Those are the only concerns that I've got.

Big John:  The only thing in Phase II is the ballroom. By-the-way, Priolotti, or Mr. Hamilton, do we know where the agreement is on Peabody? It was promised to me before the year's end.

Darlene Yordon:  It is in our legal department. It should be coming out any day now. We have a few days left.

Big John:  Good. OK, Main Street Property Owners.

Ben Carvagno:  The question I have, I don't know if it's the county or the city, or Mr. Prioletti, I was at the Chamber and I heard that they want to make Main Street a pedestrian, eliminating parking and everything, I want to know what the status of that is.

Big John:  That wouldn't have any interest in the county; Prioletti is the one who is in charge of that project.

Rick Prioletti:  I haven't heard any discussion of that in the city.

Darlene Yordon:  Someone is pulling your leg, Ben, I think.

Ben Carvagno:  No, no. Mr. Asher, at the Chamber meeting, Commission meeting, they brought it up right then and there. The Chair you were there, they said about making Main Street pedestrian. We got to contribute to what they want, I got to know what I am doing whether to spend money when they are going to pedestrian. This was at the Chamber, so, there is something in the wind behind the scenes, as usual. I like to know.

Big John:  Well, it doesn't have anything to do with this project.

Ben Carvagno:  Well, isn't the city combined with the county?

Big John:  Only to the point of parking and traffic of this building. I mean, they are doing a lot of other stuff. 

Frank Gummey:  I can clarify that either the Chamber or the city is closing Main Street.

Darlene Yordon:  Because it is a state route, right Frank?

Frank Gummey:  It's a county route.

Big John:  Main Street is a county route, so the city cannot close it.  OK. The Main Street Redevelopment Board. They didn't come.

Jim Wachtel:  Mr. Mazulo is a member of the Main Street Redevelopment as am
I, and he has nominated me. Wish you would finish this project post haste.

Big John:  Have you ever discussed this project in your board meetings?

Jim Wachtel:  No.

Tony Mazulo:  I have one question. This parking garage you had said building
one, where is that?

Wouldn't it be less costly to build this one up?

Gilly Aguiar:  No, we are talking about the piece of property that is just adjacent over here that Adam's Mark has an agreement with the city for right here, next to the Peabody. You would eventually have two parking garages that would feed Main Street and all of this area.

Big John:  I think the question was though, is it cheaper or more expensive to add floors four and five to the one we talked about here or to put floors two and three on the one above Stuart and I think they are probably pretty close the same price. A floor is a floor, wherever you put it.

Jim Wachtel:  But you would have to put in access ramps and roadway access and equipment and things like that, so the start-up cost for a new garage would be a little bit more than adding floors.

Big John:  So it would be cheaper because we don't need ticket booths and that kind of stuff.

Sharon Hughes: How many floors can we go up?

Jim Wachtel:  Whatever zoning allows us.

Big John:  How high can we go, Prioletti?

Rick Prioletti:  I believe the zoning we have got is no higher than what we have now. I think we have got it in our codes not to exceed that. So, a special permit.

Big John:  So, when we get the Ocean Center building rezoned we also want to
take on possibility of the problem with the height of the garage.

Rick Prioletti:  One of the things here. You are looking at public facilities to serve the area. We want a lot of people to come into this area, to get there, to park, walk around and leave without great hassle.

Big John:  Did you say you want a lot of people to come to this area?

Rick Prioletti:  These conventions are going to draw people. You are doing this to accommodate more people than are here today. And what I think you are going to have, the Main Street will be an entertainment place and they are going to need parking. So, you may be using the garages for the Ocean Center and the Main Street properties. Those property owners are going to benefit, so they are going to contribute to this. It is their desire to have that facility, available parking so that they can accommodate their customers. That would give them more room to do things on their own property instead of parking. 

Big John:  I just want to help Valerie for a minute. This is a quote Valerie, "when a lot of people come into the area, the main street is going to be an entertainment place". I don't think it's going to make it past the editors, but I just want to quote that.

Frank Gummey:  One factor about the garage is that I think if you get above four floors, there are additional structural requirements. Because we went five and that added some cost.

Jim Wachtel:  Obviously the higher that you go, where you are affected by the wind, so, yes, the structure needs to be stronger as you go up. 

Tom Staed:  Speaking of the garage, Mr. Hamilton, how is the garage doing?

Rick Hamilton:  It is doing much better. I can bring the report to this group next time if you'd like. Our revenues are up and the complaints are down.

Tom Staed:  The layout of the parking garage, it seems to me that one, it's the simplest building I have ever seen, and yet, it's hard to get in and out.

Big John:  OK. The Beachside Merchants. Paulie, do you want to say something?

Paul Politis:  I am going to have to agree with what George Mirabal said, this is something that we have been working towards having diversifying to economy of Daytona Beach as far as tourism is concerned, and this is a vital tool for that. Only concern I do have, is something that Bob Davis kind of alluded to, if there is really only one funding source, the bed tax, we would like to explore an option of maybe having some other options. As we evolve as a community, there are going to be other projects that are going to come on line, we can't just keep coming to the Hotel/Motel Association saying that we are going to tack another penny on to fund these costs. We really need to be pro-active and look at some other options.

Big John:  Paulie, you may not have been here, but we had one or two meetings and that's all we did, explore all the other kinds of taxes we could think of. We explored every one of them and not one of them came within $20,000,000.

Paul Politis:  I am not talking about this project, but maybe the future projects. Only reason I'm saying that is this expansion not only benefits the immediate hotels in the area, but also the gift shops, restaurants and bars. And I guess, not to saddle one industry on this project, maybe we should look to spread the cost amongst everyone that is benefiting from it. That's just food for thought for future projects.

Big John:  We were unable to come up with appropriate tax. Prioletti, do you know if the city is going to go after beverage and food tax?

Rick Prioletti:  Yes.

Big John:  Similar to the one in Miami? Can you give us a little sniff on that?

Rick Prioletti:  Right now we have limits on what we can do.

Darlene Yordon:  We are looking at half cent sales tax during three months of the year. When we met with Joyce Cuzak it was a half cent sales tax during February, March and April just on the Beachside. That's the way the Mayor had it structured. And that's what I think they told the lobbyists. We haven't had a report back.

Big John:  It will be far more that that. George can you tell us about that.

George Mirabal:  Just what I understood on this, is that the city is proposing a two percent tax on food and beverage in hotels and one percent in standalone restaurants and bars year around.

Darlene Yordon:  Who presented that to you George?

George Mirabal:  The city presented it to the legislative delegation. 

Big John:  This is just food and beverage.

Stuart Arp:  Just the beachside?

George Mirabal:  No, citywide.

Paul Politis:  Commissioner, where would that money be earmarked for? Is it a certain fund? Is it going into the general fund?

Darlene Yordon:  Obviously I am not in the loop on the information. The last I heard it was going to cover costs and it was only half cent for three months. Obviously someone has changed the direction and they haven't briefed the Commission on it. But, I will find out about it and get back to you Paul on it.

Big John:  That's year around four, five million?  OK, Boardwalk, Mr. Mazulo do you want to talk now or are you done?

Tony Mazulo:  I don't represent Boardwalk. That would be Dino  Paspalakis. 

Big John:  So there is no one here from the Boardwalk. Is there anyone else who would like to say anything about any part of this meeting? So, we will go to "The Next Step to Expansion of the Ocean Center, Darlene.

Darlene Yordon:  I don't know how the rest of the council here feels, but I' d like to set time-frame with certain duties, one page memo with the basics on it to be presented because I will have to go back to Peacock and I would like the City of Daytona to be included in this for a further presentation and get this thing moving so that we can go to the Council and get the money, but I am just one person up here.

Big John:  I have no problem with the request. I think it is an appropriate one. The only thing is that maybe we should hold of on the city until it's decided whether the county is going to do anything.



Darlene Yordon:  And we will find out Thursday, right?



Big John:  No, no. No action will be taken Thursday. This is just an update sort of to let Mr. Bruno, who I think will be the next Chair of the County Council and the next Chair of this Committee, so that he will have a jump on the place.



Darlene Yordon:  But I think that the County Council will come back and say does the City of Daytona Beach want it. And I think John, you pointed that out.



John Masiarczyk:  We had this meeting and there must have been five hundred phone calls to get us here today, and this is nowhere near to what I wanted to hear. I heard basically from the organizations here, but I wanted to hear from the County, basically, Daytona Beach. No reflection on your report, but I want to hear from the City of Daytona Beach, do you want this or don't you want this. I mean, we heard basically from everyone else and they are in favor except for some minor changes, but it seems like the traffic is the biggest thing and to move forward on Mr. Wachtel's plan we need to know what we can put into this space because it is limited. There was some talk earlier about underground parking if we had to do it under that facility. We talked about second floor and I think we can't start that plan until we get this traffic study done. Whether it's the state, the city or the county, or whoever works it out, I think we have got to have it now. The projected square footage I think we all agree on. We love his plan. I have no problem with that, but I think, will the footprint fit into that area for the traffic and circulation patterns. If it does, I'm ready to go, but I still want to hear from Daytona. I thought Bud would be here to say "City of Daytona is ready support this". I think there is going to be some enormous expenses incurred by the city to support the added traffic, the added everything. If City of Daytona was ready for it I would not stand in the way. I thought sure there would be somebody in here.



Darlene Yordon:  I think also that City of Daytona Beach shows it to the residents in the area on the beach side, that we include them in the process. This group or Jim and company, a presentation needs to be made to the Commission either here in the Ocean Center with the dinner like the county got or a workshop at the City of Daytona Beach, so that we can include the people, because this is something positive and it needs to be presented positively to the residents and to include them in this whole process.



Big John:  We invited the City Commission today.



Darlene Yordon:  For some people this is a part-time policy making job. Some of the commission have full-time jobs where they can not come on a Tuesday morning 9:00 o'clock.



Big John:  I hear what you guys are saying. Maybe we'll invite them to dinner. Any more comments on the Next Step to Expansion of the Ocean Center? What were we supposed to do on this?



Rick Hamilton:  Give us a plan what you want to do.



Big John:  I am going to the County Council where we are at which we think we made some significant progress. I think we are all basically in an agreement what to do next and the bottom line is funding which I personally feel that most hoteliers in the Halifax area are opposed to the one cent additional bed tax.  Would you like to comment on that Mr. Staed?



Tom Staed:  I have been out of school, so I don't really know how they feel.



Big John:  Mr. Bazemore



Jim Bazemore:  I talk to a number of people and at this particular time, you must remember that a significant number of motels are all but 50 units so to speak and they will not benefit what so ever. This will be a hard sell. I do think that in order for this to fly we need to talk to the hotel/motel, maybe a special meeting, and see what they want, because I see no other way funding this thing. I don't like it and I am in the business. We don't want to kill the goose that is laying the golden egg. Our taxes out here again are very close to statewide. We have to be very, very careful not to kill something we have got.



Big John:  Would you be in favor of the one cent?



Jim Bazemore:  I am still in favor, yes. I was one of the original groups to think that it'll do well for the area. I still do but not as much as when we started. We thought we were redeveloping something here that was slums. We did that to a point, but the trickle down effect outside this center is not there. At least it's not for me.



Bob Davis:  I think that Darlene said something before that made a lot of sense and I think that this is the two issues: I think one of the issues is marketing plan and the projections taking out names and job descriptions and we have a letter on file from a hotelier who has seven hotels and we have a letter on file from hotelier who has five hotels against the Ocean Center. If the plan is to succeed, where are we going and what are we going to do on the operational side. We have not talked about the operational side. Jim Bazemore is not going to add another 100 rooms to Barry's if he doesn't have the guests to fill it. That's the sell that needs to be done if you are going to double the size or triple the size of the Ocean Center. How many more conventions are you going to put on the books, how much more business are you going to bring in. One of the letters that we received showed a downscale of the last three, four years as for the conventions. Now that could be the truth, I didn't have a chance to study it. Then you got a hard sell. You don't double something when you are sliding backwards. You don't add hotel's rooms when you can't sell what you got. And I think that the operational side needs to be looked at and how many more sales people are you going to put on the road. How are we going to intertwine the CVB and the Ocean Center staff? This is not directed at anybody. This is just looking at it from the business side. I think that's what the hoteliers are looking at. If you tell, and Jim Bazemore just said that, that you have x, y, z, and this is what we've got out on the field, you'll have an easy sell. But I think that you need to merchandise it first. Not just build some pie in the sky and say they'll come, there are 87 convention centers being built right now in this country of America and three quarters of them are not going to make it. We have to make it.



Big John:  So you are saying that the next step is to decide what the use of the building will be, what the potential conventions will look like, and the operational cost, etc.?



Bob Davis:  Of course, and then to hear that there is another sales tax coming up for food and beverage, I mean, you've got to play the same street. We are all on the same page. We all want this area to grow. We want this to be the best thing that ever happened, but this side coming with this and this side coming with that, it leaves us wide open. We are too vulnerable. I don't know how many people heard about the two cents. I didn't. I knew nothing about it. 12.5% is in Dade County and Jacksonville as far as the highest sales tax and the bed tax in the state. We could do it, but you've got to merchandise. I have to be able to sell it.



Big John:  So, we would be at 12.5% without the two percent?



Bob Davis:  I don't want to go with the two percent.



Big John:  The two percent would only be on food and beverage.



Bob Davis:  So what does that make it, 8.5%?



Jim Bazemore:  My guests staying in the motel are staying for this much for this and if he is paying additional two percent on the food, hey man, I am hitting him pretty hard.



Big John:  Well, I wonder about the donuts. Is that on the donuts?



Bob Davis:  Oh, yeah.



Big John:  Sharon tells us, what do you think? What should we do?



Sharon Mock:  Going ahead with the whole thing?



Big John:  Well we are doing it. We just got balked down again. Maybe we got balked down so that we can move ahead. This is definitely couple of months worth of work, is it not, Mr. Davis?



Bob Davis:  Absolutely.



Sharon Mock:  I agree with Bob. I think all of these things need to go on simultaneously. We have some notion. We have talk about where this whole thing is going to go. I have not sat down and done any kind of detail plan, because we weren't sure that the whole project was going to fly. We are becoming the looser on the meeting and convention side and we are no longer considered a player in these conventions because we no longer have a facility that can compete in a large way. There are centers being build all of the country. We have to decide whether we want to define this area as meeting and convention destination.



Stuart Arp:  I wish there were other ways to fund this too. I don't think that the hoteliers should always fund the bill because people do spend money everywhere else, but apparently that is not possible. We made a big investment across the street and it really is to try to get the convention market. Our numbers are down somewhat. I am not sure why. We were doing around 45,000 room nights per year in group business before we built the hotel. We are doing about 75,000 this year and project to do 85,000 next year. So we doubled almost our convention business room nights. Multiply that by $125 rate times whatever. People became a good part of the stats. So, our business is up. A lot of our groups use this facility. More would like to use it, but the size is a limitation. We rank, this just came out in the Florida Trend this last month, in the State of Florida, in terms of square footage, and this is the twentieth largest facility in Florida. So, you've got nineteen other facilities that have more space that we do. This is not just convention centers, this includes hotels. And many hotels have more space that this. Last year we were 17th, so we a slipping because people are adding on, building new facilities, what have you. There is no question that the hotels in this core area are going to benefit more that the hotels in 5-10 miles away, but this is the biggest concentration of rooms which also pays the biggest part of the bill. I'd like to move forward with this as best as we can. The longer we wait, the interest rates aren't as favorable, and competition is getting better. I am too, concerned that we market this well and sell it well. Otherwise we just have this facility that sits empty. I think that Rick has looked at that and has got a pretty good plan in place. We just have to do a better job communicating this to Hotel/Motel Association.



Tom Staed:  One thing I think would be important trying to sell other hotels, would be a feasibility study that could be done with Rick and Sharon and put it together on the types of conventions that you would attempt draw and the room nights per person so that you could see that this center would not hold them all on ex-number of conventions. I think that would be real
helpful.



Sharon Hughes:  Sharon, a few years ago, weren't we at Daytona Beach missing out on a lot of convention business because we couldn't accommodate some of the people in one place that they wanted. I thought that was a part of the reason that we were even beginning this study.



Sharon Mock:  We do have a study. It is a couple of years old, but we do have some studies that indicate that there is a market for it. I am going to back up a minute and address the funding issue. I think that alternative funding sources are out there. We heard this morning, people brought up other proposals that were on the table that were going to the legislative delegation looking for alternative funding sources. A real function in here would be for somebody in this group to take on this project and see what you could bring forward. Now the delay was a problem. We talked about the fact that it could go to the legislature. It takes time to do that. Well, we spent a year at this table talking about what we were going to do. There is no agreement on the hotel tax. Seems to me that you could find some committee or sub-committee to explore alternative funding to see what might be done.



Big John:  Well, it is just that we went through a lot of alternative funding.



Sharon Mock:  Well, the alternative funding would involve coming up with some other source of taxation and having an agreeable group to be a participant in that. Who is proposing the food and beverage tax?



The City.



Sharon Mock:  That's exactly what is going on there, they are proposing a food and beverage tax and they are taking it to the legislature. You can do that on any number of initiatives. Somebody just has to do the work and you will have to make sure that the opposition is not going to be down on that regard. You have to get people to agree that yes this is a good thing that is going to help the whole community. As Paul said, the burden is always on the community because people assume that visitors won't complain. You know, they don't complain to the legislative official so no one seems to care about that.



Big John:  So are you saying that's an area that the city is looking to gain a lot of money. They will use it to pay for special events; I think that's what they are doing.



Sharon Mock:  I am not saying that we should compete with the city for dollars. I am just saying that that was a good idea and that's what this group should do.



Big John:  I have a feeling that we did that.



Sharon Mock:  Well, then we said it takes too long.



Big John:  No, no, we had Charlene come up with a number funding. We had a financial advisor and everything.



Sharon Mock:  Under the existing law, Frank help me out here, there is nothing out there that we could tap in, and is that what we said.



Frank Gummey:  Correct, and I will get with the county.  First of all it is not within this group's authority to pursue something like this. But, second thing, I think that it is completely unrealistic. You are talking about getting the general law state financial application change to create a new tax. It is very clear that the state has significant funding problems. To think that in these next two years the legislature is going to be interested in creating taxes for local government I think is not realistic.



Big John:  We have all the hotels, almost all the hotels, who feel that they don't get a good return from this building and Stuart who gets the maximum return from this building, so, Staed, you are going to decide this one.



Tom Staed:  No I'm not.  I am one vote out the eleven.



Big John:  We need to hear from you what we should do next.



Tom Staed:  I supported the first one. It is very difficult to trace the revenue that you receive from conventions but there is some. I think that the industry in this community desperately needs to upgrade the type of customer that we receive, add to the type of customer that we receive. Large convention groups in the proper time of the year do that better than anything that I know. So, if it was up to me to decide about the penny, I would probably agree to it. Now, having said that, there are umpteen smaller hotels, I only have a small hotel, but there are umpteen that are smaller than me that will not feel that way about it and persuading them is going to a 4-3 vote of the County Council, not of us. We can recommend it and I probably will recommend it when we come to the vote on it. I could change my mind, but I have listened to the arguments a quite some time. We need this whole thing. We need to redevelop Main Street. We need to have it ultimately as a year-around tourist street. We need adequate parking all around the whole tourism area and we need to be able to attract tradeshows and conventions that will bring in several thousand people at one time.  We have to book that kind of business for it to make a lot of sense. We've got a lot of things that we reserve year after year that prevents us from doing hotel shows and doing tradeshows and doing conventions in seasons that we need them. So, we have to prioritize what comes into the facility and that has a lot of conflicts. You've got the issue of the two cents. Who gets the credit for it after the present bond runs out?  We have been refinancing it periodically. The refinancing now took it to 2013, so you've got that issue. You have to get the hotels to approve it. If they don't, you have to stonewall it through the County Council and you have to get the cities that are in West Volusia and Southeast Volusia to agree to extend that two cent part.



Big John:  One more question, is it worth the exercise to do the marketing with Bob, Sharon and Rick to try to sell the hotels on the value of the project?



Tom Staed:  I would not do a $100,000 feasibility study. I think that in-house they can do it. It is just sitting down and saying what kind of conventions can we bring here, putting their names down, a number of room nights and it isn't the number of total room nights, it is the number of room nights per night so that some of it does spread over to Ormond Beach and Daytona Beach Shores.



Big John:  So you are moderately enthusiastic about proceeding ahead with the marketing plan which would be done by Bob, Sharon and Rick? And making sure that the Hotel/Motel, maybe give them sixty days to complete that, bring it back and try to sell it to the Hotel/Motel on the plan before. 

Tom Staed:  I don't know that that will sell a single hotelier that hasn't made up their mind, but it might at least show them that that's the purpose. If the purpose is only to bring 2000 delicate conventions then anybody that is out of the simple core area is not going to get it with the exception of getting the overflow when those properties are filled. It's a tough call. You have to be a patriot to vote for it. We had to be a patriot to vote for it for the first time. It never got approved the first time. And then when we did pass it, it was a very difficult job. We passed it, and then we didn't run it to produce room nights down the beach as well as we should have. So, it didn't produce the kind of room nights that I was hoping it would. And neither will this one, but I think it's good for the overall area. I always watch when big conventions are in the center then you can get some of their overflow business. Bob you are going to have to get to those guys and see what they want to do.



Bob Davis:  I want to piggy bag on what you said there. I think that is the whole issue. I think that it can be sold. I think that it's a great idea. I never thought of myself being involved with Sharon and Rick, but we do mix some small lodging in it and the hoteliers at least buy into that process they feel they are a part of it. Now they are being told two cents on your food and beverage and "see you guys". I think you make them buy into it and they start listening.



Jim Bazemore:  The original deal was for the good of all, because Tom and I went out and sold it.  If you want this town to be a first class town, if you want to be proud of what you've got, and you want to be at least half way competitive, you are going to vote for this. I am not saying that it is going to make be any more money, but I think that down the line if Daytona Beach prospers, I get mine.



Big John:  So I want to say that if the Council agrees, we will ask Rick, Bob and Sharon and involving other hoteliers as well, I think they should be Sunshine meetings, you will invite any interested parties. So, is that a plan, what do you want to do?



Tom Staed:  I think that Stuart could add to that mix. What kind of conventions are you hunting?



Big John:  I am expecting Stuart to show up. I hope he does.



Lori Campbell-Baker:  Maybe it doesn't have to be 60 days.



Big John:  How long do you need?



Sharon Mock:  Basically, I think Rick has a lot of studies, he has found racing stuff, we got it.



Big John:  Well, if you guys want to work over the holidays we can cut down the time. You want to say by January 30?



Tom Staed:  That would be good.



Big John:  Rick, can you do it? So, I want to appoint that committee, those three people to share it and it will be a Sunshine meetings and everyone will be noticed. Let's notice the merchants that have come today as well. Anybody else that we want to notice?



Darlene Yordon:  That's just for the Hotel/Motel to be involved in this process?



Big John:  That will be a part of it, but the main function is the business plan and the marketing plan to tell us what is going to happen in this building and if it is worth to the people to buy in.



Darlene Yordon:  Just one phase in moving this project forward?



Big John:  I think so.



Gilly Aguiar:  I think if you go back to Johnson report, and if this is done properly, and we do this right, like Jim says, we'll have a first class facility here, that will benefit the whole county. I don't see it as a problem. By building the square footage we are talking about and making it conjunctive with the building that we have, it jumps us to the top tear of the second level of convention business. Right, that's what the report told us? So it takes us from where we are 19th in Florida to the top five second level convention centers not to be confused with Orange County or that kind of thing. I didn't know that we were actually on a 30-year deal on the two cents for the other parts of the county. I think that if we come up here and we do a diligent job, which Bob Davis was talking about, as far as giving a notice, having a business plan. We need to include the City of Daytona Beach in this business plan. I know that if we can build this thing right and I can see it's not a pink elephant or white elephant ten years down the road, I can sell those two cents to stay in to do this because this is a county project. And I think that we can champion it on the west side too.  Just like you have to champion it here. If you have trouble championing it in here, think what John is thinking going back to West Volusia and saying OK the other two cents instead of being for nine years, it's going to be 30 years.



John Masiarczyk:  I won't be selling it. I will be in the opposition, because I don't believe in it. I believe in the premise that when it was done originally it was something for the county because there wasn't West Volusia, there wasn't DeBarry, wasn't Deltona, Deltona wasn't the largest populous city. Now we have to fight for something there. We don't have a facility that will hold 250 people with the exception of the Fairgrounds. We need facilities there. Nothing as grandiose as we are planning here, but we are going through our process to see what's necessary there. I think that after being here for over a year, rather than start this East-West thing, I think it is good for the county. But I think the funding is paramount because that's new information I received. I did receive new information I didn't know about and that is that the Hotel/Motel Association is not crazy about this, non enthusiastic. That is a sales job that has to be done by Rick, I think.  I think the financing needs to be re-addressed by you to the County Council. I think that you should go to the County Council and lay it on the line: after one year here is where we are at. We have a prospective building. We need a traffic study. We need a financial plan. And that's what the County should do. We have done our job. I think, basically the TDC has recognized a need for a larger facility, we have come up with a decent plan, before we go any further when they have to make decision on spending several hundred thousand dollars, and I think we should put it in the county's hands. That will force everybody to make those decisions. That will force the open forum where all those people have their chance to say something. Because at this forum we just keep beating this up. Every month we change the location of the garage door and poor Wachtel gets nervous. That is not the issue anymore. The TDC thinks, this board thinks, they need the facility. They have a good lock on the size and I think we should put it in the County Council's hands and say we need traffic study, we need funding mechanism. It takes an open meeting and let the county put out a financing plan.



Darlene Yordon:  I just really think that Daytona Beach needs to be included especially with what we are doing with the Boardwalk and the impact that it has on this.  I really would like to see in the next 30 days a meeting done for the City of Daytona Beach Commission so that we can also include the beach side.



Big John:  I would like to wait until Rick, Bob and Sharon have done with this thing.



Tom Staed:  Robert, are the hoteliers badly against this project?



Bob Davis:  They need more information and secondly, what has it done for me for the part 20 years.



Tom Staed:  There is a lot of ways that you can get business out of it. When they have a big thing it only fills the center and then Rick doesn't have those 728 rooms across the street, so I get a few rentals that would have stayed there.



Big John: Well, I think that we got to do one more month and with any kind of hope, based on what I think I heard you say, maybe we can avoid bloodshed.



Darlene Yordon:  I disagree, because I think that we can simultaneously be including the City of Daytona Beach.





Big John:  I am not against that. They can come up to every meeting.



Darlene Yordon:  We need a separate either a workshop, have Rick bring us here, however you would like to structure it

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