Volusia County Council Meeting. Tuesday, March 19, 2024. (Music plays) SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in 10 minutes. (Music plays) SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in five minutes. (Music plays) SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in two minutes. (Music plays) JEFFREY S BROWER: It is 3:59 PM, we will start in 51 seconds. (Music plays) JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. We will call the March 19, 2024 Volusia County Council meeting to order at 4:00 PM. Just to give you an idea of how we are going to start – same way we do every meeting – we will have an invocation first. In just a minute, I will ask you to stand up for the invitation and the Pledge of Allegiance. If your faith group – you don't have to stand up yet – if your faith group would like to participate in the invocation, please just send an email to kgreen@volusia.org, Karissa is to my left, and she will get you set up to do that. You are welcome to participate. Is Rev. Neal here? If everyone would stand and remain standing for the pledge. We have Rev. Neal Ganzel from Coquina Presbyterian. REV NEAL GANZEL: You have given the governance of Volusia County into the hands of the men, women and staff members that back them up. We pray that this day you will be here in the hearts and minds of each one here. Dispensing the wisdom we all should ask for, when we are doing things like this. We thank you that in all that we do, we are always in the presence of the great God of the universe for whom we shall all stand, to give an account of our lives, the things we have done in the body, and when it comes to pastors and fathers and mothers and commissioners, Lord, we will stand to give an account of how well we have done for those we have served. Again, I think you for each member, they have so much to do for us. Give them wisdom today, and their staff. We pray these things in the name of the Lord. (Pledge of Allegiance) JEFFREY S BROWER: Karissa, would you call the roll? (Roll Call) JEFFREY S BROWER: We do have quorum, full house. A lot of people in the audience, some of whom want to speak and we are glad that you come and take that opportunity to talk to us. I will call your name in order that you – these were handed in. Just ask that when you get here, we can adjust the microphones and even the height of the podium because we want to be able to hear you. This is recorded, and videoed, and the public wants to hear you. Please speak clearly into the microphone. Tell us what part of the county you are from. You don't need to give the whole address, for safety reasons. Just tell us where you're from, so your representative can can identify you. You have three minutes to speak. First we have Deborah (unknown name). That is much prettier than the way I said it. SPEAKER: Everybody gets it wrong. My name is Deborah Dubois, I live in District 1. Mr Dempsey is my representative. I am retired librarian with 40 years experience in public libraries, and a member of the Library Advisory Board. I moved to Volusia County two years ago and applied to the Library Advisory Board because I wanted to get involved and be of service to a new community. The current Library Advisory Board has representatives from five-county districts and two at-large representatives that provide advice and information to the library from the County citizens' point of view. Our members are from all areas of the county, in different walks of life, so we can represent a wide range of viewpoints on behalf of your constituents. We are an active board that meets regularly, helping the library at no cost to the county. At the previous Volusia County Council meeting, it was suggested to dissolve the Library Advisory Board and Mr Recktenwald suggested that the friends of the library might serve in that capacity instead. The friends of the library in Volusia County is not one cohesive organization that works for the whole county. Each branch of the library has a separate friends of the library organization that supports the individual branch. Most friends of the library groups are 501(c)(3) nonprofit organizations that primarily raise funds for book sales to help the library branch provide programs and equipment that the library branch cannot otherwise afford. They are not set up to represent the whole county like the Library Advisory Board. It saves you time by making recommendations related to the library that you and your staff don't have to research. We bring idea for programs and services to better meet the information needs of the whole community. The public library is an important component of a strong democracy. Giving citizens a role in advising the library makes that democracy stronger. There is no benefit to the county in dissolving the Library Advisory Board. I respectfully ask you to not to dissolve the Library Advisory Board. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. George (unknown name) SPEAKER: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman, members of the board, and counsel. My name is George (unknown name) I live in the city limits of Deland, Victoria Park, and have been in this vicinity most of my life. I'm here to talk about the flooding that everyone is aware of that has been going on. Thank you Mr. Chairman for your clarity and direction, it is appreciated. Mr Recktenwald, I appreciate you and Benjamin Bartlett coming out and surveying the situation, and there's a good understanding of what is going on out there. I had a lot of notes prepared here, but I had an opportunity to speak to Mr Recktenwald, and I understand that now the county is working with the city and discussing this issue and working jointly to see what can be found to remedy this. I appreciate that. I want to encourage that. I have Michael (unknown name), the Senior Manager of DeLand multiple times tell me they want to be a partner in this, so that is great news. I want to ask for a couple things. One, I would like to understand if this is a formal project within Volusia County organization, if there is a project manager, deliverables and a timeframe. If you don't make something a project, it can languish, that is my experience, so I encourage this to be formalized at some sort of project. There's $50 million in FEMA money out there that is eligible for this type of situation. I want to make sure we have our eye on that, as well. I just want to remind everyone the struggles that are going on out there. Hundreds of thousands of dollars are spent. I saw my son have to replace the septic tank, flooded out. Property tax, everyone is paying full property tax, even though I doubt anyone could sell it if they were forced to. There's a lot of damage that is occurring but I'm encouraged by my conversation with Mr Recktenwald. I want to be supportive and I encourage you to engage my son who is knowledgeable in this area. The last able to ask for is this is some point in the future, near term, I hope, make an agenda item so it can be discussed at length, and staff can report to the Council, and the public, what is going on. I would like to make that request that you will consider making this a formal agenda item at some point so we can all work together. I want to be an ally, I want to be part of helping. I appreciate the time. This time, I used all my time. (Bell chimes) JEFFREY S BROWER: You may know this next speaker, JC. SPEAKER: I am JC (unknown name), 3059 Jackson Woods road. I'm out of breath because I ran out here. I'm still here, we are hoping to see more attention to this. We are hoping to see some of the money that was directed towards cell may be low income housing be used to this. I'm still questioning some of that and what the reason that was done. Mr Robins, you said something one of the last meetings that I can relate to and I'm hoping that we can, he can see my point of view a little bit. It was about the high density housing coming in, and you had said that you should buy yourself your own piece of paradise, and you will be around it but you will not really see it. I was watching the YouTube and I saw that and like, "Damn, that's exactly what I'm thinking when I bought mine." It has affected us. I want you to think, you are sitting on your porch, and you said you've got your nice piece of paradise, and it is flooded and mosquitoes are bad and you cannot the dogs out and your septic doesn't work, your driveways in one feet of water, and you cannot get things delivered because they cannot see your house. That was my piece of paradise and I work for it and dumped my heart and soul family into it, as well as my neighbors and lots of others. It is affecting us. I asked for this to be put on the agenda, seriously, and really discuss and thought about, this is not a storm event. This is not 100 years, this is not 50 years, this is regularly. I have water. We barely got any rain the other day and I still have a feet of water, my property is flooded. I have a flipped upside on sink, and these are my problems, this is a problem that we are experiencing. I invite everyone of you who thinks this is a rain event and rain problem to come out to my house, sit there, hear me out, listen to what I have to say. Let me show you the plans, the errors that were made. Let me show you what is really happening in our area. I am not saying this is a countywide problem, but this is me and all of my neighbors within a couple of square miles problem. I encourage you guys to come, hear me out, listen to the data I have, listen to the stuff that I have experienced, the stuff I have witnessed. Try to understand this from a more open perspective than, this is a 50 year, 100 year storm. This is not. This is engineering gone wrong. If you come out, sit down, I will take you want to tour and show you everything and you will understand exactly what I am talking about. If you have played in the dirt at the beach as a kid, or in the garden with a hose, you will understand what I'm talking about. (Bell chimes) JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Denise Mosley. Why? MICHAEL G DYER: You don't grant time from one person to another. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. Denise, you don't care to speak? SPEAKER: (away from mic) JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. What did you do get it under control? The council does not wish to grant more time because it is in our rules that we do not do that. Karen (unknown name). SPEAKER: Good afternoon. My name is Karen and I'm here to thank the chair Jeffrey Brower and County Council member Santiago for attending and speaking at the faith, which is an acronym, Fighting Against Injustice Ttoward Harmony action assembly where an organization there are more than 30 places of worship across Volusia County who are members. It was at our Lady of Hope church in Port Orange regarding flooding and low impact of element in front of the 1444 citizens from all over Volusia County who were present last night. Your participation was helpful and informative to your constituents. Flooding in low-impact development are important issues to all who live in Volusia County, as we see developers clearcutting trees all over the county. Whether it is New Smyrna Beach, Port Orange, Daytona, Deltona, Deberry or Ormond Beach. To the county council members who chose not to attend, your constituents noticed your absence also. Next I would like to address the motion to exclude audio/visual presentations, maps, audio recordings from public comments to the Council. Is it that you do not want citizens to know that the Ormond Beach airport, the busiest private airport in the state of Florida with two aviation (audio issues). Is that way they want maps presented? I can see where putting limits on citizen participation might be attractive to you all, but isn't representing your community, your primary duty? Don't you have more loyalty to Volusia County citizens than private interests and enterprises? We elected you to represent us, and to watch out for our well-being. Will you be serving us, world will you be serving yourself by being more expedient with public participation time by limiting exposure of AV materials, pictures and maps? Thank you for your attention and in some cases, your partial attention, to my comments. (Applause) JEFFREY S BROWER: Barbara Heekin? SPEAKER: Good afternoon, I'm Barbara Egan, President and CEO of the Port Orange Chamber of Commerce and I'm coming up on my one year anniversary. I relocated here last May with one goal and that is to make a difference. And I'm here today to talk a little bit about how we can make a difference in creating a strong community partnership and bring solutions. We are here to invite councilmembers to attend an event coming up on April 11 and I have left flyers with your clerk. This event is in partnership with the Volusia recovery alliance. Our keynote is Volusia Sheriff Chitwood. It is being sponsored by Halifax Health. We have the medical community, legal, law enforcement, elected officials, who were kind enough to have the talents of our Council member Reinhart and Danny Robins. The presentation title luncheon is the opiate epidemic in the workplace: developing a recovery friendly workers initiative that aims for the awareness to establish a clear pathway towards the creation of a comprehensive recovery friendly workplace initiative. Together, we aspire to cultivate a supportive community environment. Your partnership is crucial in making a meaningful difference. We are eagerly anticipating your participation in this. Finally, I would like to close thanking our County manager George Recktenwald. I had the opportunity to serve as the citizens Academy, and am able to work across all the parts with your department heads to be able to bring valuable programs to your citizens. Thank you so much. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. John Nicholson? SPEAKER: John Nicholson, Daytona Beach side. Let me start out before I forget, the new chamber for Halifax chamber, the new building, have an open house next week. I encourage you all to go. By accident I walked in and Nancy showed me around. You will be impressed as soon as you walk in the door. Look at that mural. Secondly, affordable housing, I missed that two weeks ago. We have not yet decided the size or who needs it or where it's going to be or what the cost is going to be, and I'm asking you guys to do that. There is a need for seniors that are losing their trailers. They have raised the rent, they cannot afford it. To me, we have to look at what we need and that is a major issue. The second one is our kids. When they graduate from college, where are they going to live? I think that is a market that we have to health workers. They don't need McMansions. I know our mayor looking at four-bedroom, three bath, three car garage kind of things, that is not what we need for starter homes. That is not what we need for workers. I'm asking you to take a look at it and do as many units with the amount of money that you have that you can possibly do. Beach charges. I understand that is a hot topic. But realize that if you allow residents on the beach, every resident on the beach is one less tourist on the beach and the money is not there. Daytona Beach economy, of spoken about it many times, it's major economy is tourism. If you take the cost off the beach for the residents and they flood the beach, even if it's only five, six, made 1000 residents, that is a huge impact for the number of spaces left available because we live here. Will go to the beach first. And we will take all of the prime spots. So look at it carefully before you decided one way or the other. I don't know how to bring this one up. The NAACP have decided they are going to attack the state of Florida. Our colleges. They have done it in the past for different things. We, as a city, and I think the County does, a lot for the NAACP. If they are attacking our colleges, University of Florida did the DEI denial and they closed the DEI offices. The NAACP says it is anti-Black. It is not. They are attacking us telling Blacks not to come to the state of Florida, not to come to the universities, all of those things are at the core of who we are so I'm asking you to not support the NAACP if the NAACP does not support Florida or our colleges or people. Thank you. (Bell chimes) JEFFREY S BROWER: That concludes public comments for the first part of the meeting. You will have other opportunities. This brings us… SPEAKER: (away from mic) JEFFREY S BROWER: Sounds like we have one more. Karissa, do we have one more? Let's direct comments to the Chair, please. SPEAKER: (away from mic) JEFFREY S BROWER: I was talking to our clerk. OK, we have one more person. Karen Clark. SPEAKER: Thank you, it is Karen Clark of 1855 grand Avenue in Glenwood for five and under the weather for 26 days already with the flu so I'm reading something I'm going to say later as well. It is regarding item 5 on today's agenda. Please stop this ridiculous idea to limit the public's three-minute participation to only verbal expression. SPEAKER: Mr. Chair? You are going to have public input for item 5 so technically… SPEAKER: But I may not have the strength. MICHAEL G DYER: It is up to counsel. But this is for items not on the agenda. JEFFREY S BROWER: You won't be here for item 5? SPEAKER: I don't know if I have the strength. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. SPEAKER: I don't have a problem with MICHAEL G DYER: king now in regard to item number five. SPEAKER: That I won't have to the strength for later. JEFFREY S BROWER: Just continue. SPEAKER: Where is the clock? I don't see anything. Restricting the general... JEFFREY S BROWER: You are OK. You have three minutes. Go. SPEAKER: Please stop this ridiculous idea to limit the public's three-minute participation to only verbal expression. This in itself is discrimination on many levels. This meeting's purpose is supposed to get direction for the Council vote. While the direction should be placed into the garbage. When the electronic media be played during the three-minute is allowed when properly submitted, it should be played. Not everyone has the ability to speak in public. Whether due to physical or mental disabilities to express themselves, emotional capacity, can be frightening, and what about sign language? Stress is also a factor. Please, not everybody has the internet or on the computer to communicate with the county electronically. And put this into record. I have a little bit more strength but, it is in response to today's note on November 7, I don't have to read that and it is to have headway of what you want to do with shutting us up. I want to thank everybody for being here (Laughs). JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. OK, that takes us, I think that concludes public comments (Laughs). (Coughs) excuse me. That takes us to item number one for consent agenda. Does anyone have anything they want to pull for comment or vote? DAVID SANTIAGO: Pull G for comment? JEFFREY S BROWER: Was that you? I could not tell if that was you. Santiago wants to pull G for comment only. TROY KENT: I will make a motion to approve the consent agenda as proposed. JEFFREY S BROWER: Vice chair Kent makes a motion to approve the agenda as presented, seconded by Danny Robins. All in favor of approving to consent agenda please say aye. Any opposed? Agenda is approved and we will discuss or hear your comment on item G. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you. I thought it was important to highlight to the public an example of good public, private partnerships and recognize the partner of ours, the Speedway, and the good work that George and his team has done. The public should know that this product, this idea from what I understand came from our leadership team and admin led by George. It came from having potentially $5 million expense to facilitate this to being a fraction. With this agreement, the taxpayers are saving millions of dollars by us doing this agreement and it is something that staffs only took on on their own and negotiated with the sheriff's office and the Speedway folks. So, good outcome for you all and needed to highlight the good work. Thank you, Mr Chair. JEFFREY S BROWER: You are welcome. County manager George Recktenwald. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: Thank you for that. I was going to say the initial estimate was 15 million so that is even a smaller fraction and a bigger reduction so I appreciate that. DAVID SANTIAGO: Sorry, I took 10 million away from you (Laughs). TROY KENT: Just briefly, George, third meaning in a row and not one item pulled because we are more efficient and effective. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, that takes us to item number two, proclamation which will be presented here by Councilman Matt Reinhart. OK? Do you need me to call somebody up? Kat Atwood? This is for World Encephalitis Day. SPEAKER: Thank you for this opportunity to address the Council. World Encephalitis Day is recognized on February 22 each year. And in December, I wrote each of the mayors of the 16 cities and asked them if they would help me participating in world encephalitis day. The goal was to have a landmark lit up in each of the cities in red for the day. Red is the color of the disease, WED is World Encephalitis Day. And what happened is, in September 2022, out of nowhere, I fell and had a seizure. Never had one before. And it took a little over a year to get properly diagnosed. And World Encephalitis Day acknowledges that there is a need for more education. So my husband Ken and I spent the last 18 months trying to get awareness out to educate people so that, we wanted to let Volusia County kind of lead. There are no other full counties in the united states and no other states the United States the publicly recognize World As of Late Stay so I'm glad the Chairs and mayors here, I have 10 proclamations already, it is encephalitis is, there are several different kinds and mine happens to be of the brain. It came out of nowhere. I was a distance runner. I was physically fit. I was a distance runner, physically fit, in prime condition. I just fell out. I can no longer hold conversations. The county, in the state of Florida, we hope to get more acknowledgment of the disease. It's a huge acknowledgment overseas. Why the United States is not embracing it, we are trying to fix that. Thank you very much. JEFFREY S BROWER: Matt Reinhart? MATT REINHART: Thank you, Chair. I have known Kat since seventh grade. When this happened to her she was a city commission for the city of Port Orange. This disease struck her from the office and a lot more than she could have done for the community and she can still do. I commend her for that. I asked to sponsor this. I appreciate the support from the rest of the Council. Encephalitis can be caused by infectious items... It's not always possible to prevent, residents are encouraged to avoid ticks and mosquitoes, and get vaccinated for measles, mumps. Stiff neck, mental confusion and whereas encephalitis is a high death rate, and survivors are often left with an acquired brain injury and long-term neurological complications and whereas early recognition and treatment can save lives, and improve patient outcomes. Whereas, World Encephalitis Day was launched in 2014 is recognized annually on February 22, with a mission to raise global awareness about encephalitis and therefore save lives and build better future and that is the purpose of today. Therefore, we the County of Volusia County, proclaims February 22nd as World Encephalitis Day and thank resident Kat Atwood for raising awareness. SPEAKER: Thank you very much it's great to have the counties and cities behind us but we are putting the state of Florida from Volusia County on the map and I am very proud of that and of every official that has jumped on board. As Matt said, it was hard to step down from Port Orange counsel but it was the right thing to do. It has been tough. It is tough. These friends... These neighbors, this county. They all keep me going. I couldn't think of a better place to be, so thank you very much. SPEAKER: County Council, take two big steps that way and get in the middle there. That's good. One more. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. That takes us to item 3, and just a minute I will turn it over to the county manager George Recktenwald to introduce it. Before I did that and without stealing thunder, I wanted to point out. Laura Coleman, if you would stand up. What we are about to see its outstanding work from attorney Laura Coleman. She will say a lot of other people – and she led the charge for this. And has well represented the County of Volusia. George? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: Thank you, Mr Chair and well put. Certainly Laura and John Booker and Mike, over here, and myself and Suzanne, we put a lot of time and effort into this. This agenda item here addresses the phasing, as is time. To the west, the tractor being laid, the concrete is being poured. The station is taking shape every day. The train is coming, and it will be here this summer. From the departments point of view, it is time to start the transition. They have agreed graciously to continue to work with us as we transfer the ability to run the system. This starts off with a phasing agreement for the transition, they are not going to throw the keys at us and tell us to get the connector hat. We have a plan we're putting in place and we will go over that in a little bit. Basically, the department is going to continue to fund this section North for a year after we start. We will start funding as soon the date is here and the agreement coming up. The idea there is they are going to help us, and they are going to continue to run it. They are going to do that without charge to the local government partners, so that is a value of about $224,000 per year. They will do that up to 2027 so that will give us a few years to work with their partners and have a plan and how this thing will be run on a day-to-day basis. The department also is going to help contribute on some other expenses. When this went into effect years ago, there was no PTCs, which is a Positive Train Control, it's a safety system that is on trains across the country. It is mandatory. They are going to contribute to $5 million a year for that system, which will be a big help. They are also going to contribute $10 million to the first vehicle overhauls that will occur after 2025. Again, we are very grateful that they continue to partner with us. There's a new ticketing system that they will be responsible for, until its implementation requirements are met. They are also taking on part of a larger effort, but they are taking on the rail bridges along the corridor. For many of you that have never ridden that, there is a large bridge across the St. Johns River, a swing bridge that is maintenance intensive. There helping us out with that, as a big help as well. I just wanted to open with that. I will have Laura go over a few more of the highlights of the agreement. There will be the transition agreement, which did not exist because it was a transition and then there is amendment to the governance agreement because of the transition. Again, we worked real hard. Laura has done a lot of heavy negotiating. I was able to meet with the managers of our partners, County and city, and I think we have something that sets us up to be able to operate the system through the next 10 years. Go ahead, Laura. LAURA COLEMAN: Thank you. Laura Coleman, assistant county attorney. Thank you for that kind introduction, and Mr Recktenwald for pitching it off here. A couple things I'm going to go over. As George mentioned, this is a long time coming the original contracts for Sunrail were signed back in 2007, and the originally contemplated a seven year FDOT period. We are past this, it began in 2014 so it's time for transition. We have been negotiating, working with, planning, working on draft contract with our other local government partners and the department for months now, and what you have today in front of you, like George mentioned, are two different documents. An amendment to the governance agreement and new operations phasing agreement which is required, but two different things here. Governance agreement, lawyer talk, is between the global government partners and not the department itself which is why we have two contract today. This is where the caps we have talked about are in the governance agreement. The amendment to the governance agreement will update the caps. They are outdated and not particularly accurate and is required we have numbers in place that make sense for the future going forward and do not –- and is in a deadlock when we need to spend money as we move forward with the transition of this system and start operating it. That is involved in there. A contemplative beginning number of 63 million for the first fiscal year of the system, the total number, split between all of the partners. Panic. And the number will be adjusted every year annually, in accordance with the railroad cost recovery index, +1%. RCRI is more or less think about it like a CPI – an index, a fund that is published by the American Association of Rail, Rail Association, excuse me, it goes up and down depend on the marketing industry. We will follow that and plus a 1% increase. This was negotiable apartness. It was originally suggested to be higher and we went back and asked that we take a little bit of the cushion and make it a nice conservative number and when we can live with. It will be an annual adjustment +1. Probably the biggest change in the package is that the extended or expanded service, nights and weekends, is now something that requires a unanimous vote. Until this amendment it was not true, it was something that a 4/5 vote could have approved. We have would have gone forward with the extended service if everyone wanted to, even if we did not want to. If we choose to go forward with the service the other part is can choose to go so on their own and foot the bill and we don't have to be involved in that. If we decline to be involved in the extended or expanded service at the beginning, we can opt back in later. It is not a decision point front of you, not something council needs to get better make a decision on, excuse me, but you will be – they will come back to you if that becomes a question that is before CFCRC, and Mr. Brower would want your input. What you're looking at is an amendment that makes that a unanimous vote, instead of just a super majority vote. Changing things to give us more control over our futures. The language that was always in the country, 2036 is a year we can opt out of some the financial responsibility, that is the same and has not changed. There is also the operations facing agreement which I will not go through in detail because George hit all the fun highlights. This is really an agreement that contemplates a staged approach turning over transition of the system from the department to the CFCRC. You can see the stages there and I will not read them to you and confident in your abilities. We are going to start the funding next year, and there is a two-tiered approach after that. Work program is something that has always been involved in the contracts, since I think 2010, I believe, is when it made its way into the agreements. That is largely unchanged, and an option of the Department to meet its federal grant requirements. However, as said earlier, there is a cap in place negotiated earlier and were not required to spend above it and less were required to. That has made its way in as well. These are the things that George spoke about, if you have any questions I'm certain he would be glad to speak to it as well as Sec. Tyler in the audience, and he can give you more detail than I could. Any questions, happy to take those. JEFFREY S BROWER: Michael do you want to interject? MICHAEL G DYER: I want to say, I appreciate all the time of Laura and George, spent to give us this far. When we originally entered into the contract in 2007, it was anticipated, provided for in the contract that there would be a transition of the system to the local government partners and we are here. We are required to negotiate the agreement providing for what the transition looks like and how we will govern ourselves for the future. These agreements provide for that. The idea of a transition is not something that is new. It is something we are required to do and that is what Laura and George have been involved in. Working with the government partners and FDOT to get here. And George has acknowledged, there are a number of items that benefit Volusia County that would not necessarily have occurred on their own, but they are a result of the negotiation. And the last time we were here before you, your direction was to come back with the best deal possible and we feel that we have, we are bringing to you something that meets that direction. So thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: That is correct. David Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Another example of our leadership team doing a great job. This has been a topic of conversation when you said 2007, right? That is when we got into this agreement. I think central Florida benefits from your negotiation getting done and secretary, thank you for working with us. I know it has probably been a headache when you came in but I'm glad you are our district secretary and I think there couldn't of been a better man to bring this to fruition. I'm happy with the deal. All Central Florida should be happy with it. I wish we had this negotiation team in 2007, but here we are. Mr Chairman, I move to approve item number three file number 11 657. DANNY ROBINS: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: A motion to approve as presented by David Santiago, second by Danny Robins. I do have the district 5 secretary of transportation John Tyler here for questions if anybody has a question for him. Did you care to speak before? Please. We appreciate you coming. You got a little bit to do with this. JOHN TYLER: Thank you Mr Chairman, members of the Council. I actually had some remarks that I prepared but your staff already covered them so I'm just going to speak from the heart if you don't mind. I want to echo the appreciation for your staff. Ms Coleman and Mr Booker, they have been persistent and passionate advocates for Volusia County through this process so you should be very proud of what they have accomplished. And this transition deal that is being placed before you, it is many years in the making. Lots of years of hard work. But one thing that it is not, it is not a fundamental change of the relationship that DOT has with the CFCRC partners. The transition does rearrange how things are paid for and who is going to operate it, but we are still together, as SunRail was into the future. So thank you for your attention to this and I appreciate your support and I'm glad to answer any questions you may have. JEFFREY S BROWER: Think you Mr Secretary. Vice chair Troy Kent, do you have questions? TROY KENT: Not for the secretary. JEFFREY S BROWER: Anybody have a question for the secretary? I guess it was perfectly delivered by all three of you. Vice Chair Kent? TROY KENT: Thank you, Chairman. And secretary Tyler, thank you for being here. We appreciate that. And to Ms Coleman and Mr Booker, I love hearing from the secretary talking about how passionate you are about doing this right for Volusia County. You know, I appreciate it. I know my constituents appreciate it. And George, thank you for being tough on this for Volusia. It is much appreciated as well. Now, my question or comment I guess both, is received an email, this is a little off Mr Dyer, but received an email from a constituent talking about the Amtrak station in DeLand and the deplorable condition it is in. And the comment was "with this agreement, do we have any wiggle room to work with Amtrak as far as sprucing up that station, making it look better in any way shape or form?" GEORGE RECKTENWALD: We are responsible for the maintenance of the stations. I will have to get into the specifics of Amtrak itself because Amtrak is another user of the line so just like CSX, the rail will continue to use the line, they pay to do that, as will Amtrak. That is something we can go over with Amtrak to find out where they are at I know there are some plans. The station design we are having incorporates the existing station, the flavor of the place so to speak. That will be maintained. And we can find out exactly what the constituents' issues are. It is an older station I think at one time there was a grant that the county did work with them previously, and painted the station in its Amtrak form. Again, we are committed to keeping it a first-class place. It's going to be a destination, it is going to be a door, it is a door today, Amtrak come into the community, as people arrive all the time up and down the eastern corridor. With the train. So we will look into the concern, and we certainly don't want to have, just like if you have been out there, we as a county put up considerable amount of money into the paving of the road leading there and it will be in great shape for the opening and I expect other things to come thereafter. TROY KENT: Thank you. I'm glad we are having the conversation and look forward to continuing the conversation. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: Ms Coleman, I know we talked at length last week and I appreciate your patience with me (Laughs). This extension, the contract, when is our option date where if we just don't like the cost of SunRail at some point that we can opt out, no strings attached? LAURA COLEMAN: The contract documents that govern SunRail since the 2010 amendment have allowed partners to opt out at the end of fiscal year 2036. DON DEMPSEY: If this turns out to be too expensive for the taxpayers of Volusia County it does not seem like we're getting good return, we can get out of this with no strings attached in 2036? LAURA COLEMAN: Again, the capital costs of the operating costs can be, we can choose not to continue that support in 2036. Some of the questions about the station itself and the maintenance we would have to look into that later on but yes, the primary two buckets of money for lack of a better term in 2036 at the end of that year we can make that choice. DON DEMPSEY: Fair to say we are looking at it will cost the taxpayers of Volusia about 15 million a year right now? Kind of going to this? Is that a fair estimate? LAURA COLEMAN: I think that is not a number I would use. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: I think, again, it is not divided by five or something if that's what people are thinking. You have track mileage, boardings, other factors into it. But estimates show running the current hours as a commuter line, probably would be in the say six to $7 million a year range. If the nights and weekends are added, I think you might be approaching more like the nine to $10 million range. DON DEMPSEY: But as it is there's no real cap anymore for him us? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: There is a cap on the day-to-day, what I would call the backbone commuter service as it is today. There is a cap. We fought to maintain that. It had to be updated. The original one was established over 10 years ago so just like every other construction thing we have seen, prices have gone way up. And at the time, I think there was, they did not have the years of experience of running the rail which we now have today. So I am more comfortable because we have years of data. LAURA COLEMAN: Mr Dempsey, I'm sorry, will perhaps what you are thinking of we did talk about this the other day, if we choose to be part of the extended or expanded service that is not subject to a cap, but like George said, the current levels of service, current levels of operation, base service, that is capped. So perhaps your thing of extended or expanded. And again, that is unanimous vote with this amendment so we have a decision point at some point in the future which is not today (Laughs) DON DEMPSEY: Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Great questions. I think that represents the beauty of what we have before then represents the hard work that Laura, Secretary Tyler and County manager have been able to negotiate to give us some protection. We still have some big decisions down the road, not today, today the question is: do we begin with this and give ourselves that protection? And I hope that everyone will support it. I certainly do. Do we have any more questions or comments? If not, we have a motion on the floor to accept the proposal as written by David Santiago, second by Danny Robins. Don Dempsey? DON DEMPSEY: I just wanted to comment. I'm sorry. Let me just say this publicly. I'm not a big fan of SunRail and never have been. I remember what it was being debated 20 years ago. This is what we have inherited and I would like to complement George and his team because you guys have done a really good job of getting us to where we are. If I could go back in time 20 years, I probably would have voted no for this whole project but here we are. We have walked into this, and this is what we have to deal with. So it is a good deal and I really do appreciate all your efforts on what you have negotiated and I'm just worried that at some point we will get buyers remorse and it's nice to know we have an opt out date if we choose and we don't like it anymore. So I'm in favor of it. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Good, thank you. Well said. All in favor, please say aye? Any opposed? Motion carries 7-0. I'm going to let some seeds change here. KARISSA GREEN: Mr Brower before you move on… JEFFREY S BROWER: We are going to go back to item 2, proclamation, we need to vote on whether or not you care to accept the proclamation for World Encephalitis Day. The motion to approve by Matt Reinhart. Is there a second? Second by David Santiago. All in favor say aye. Any opposed? That is approved 7-0. That brings us to item number four, Volusia forever acquisition priority recommendations. Doctor Brad Burbaugh. BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes sir, thank you. Chair Brower and councilmembers, we are here today to present cycle to recommend editions from your Volusia Forever advisory Council to add six properties to the A-list. And recommendation to move one from the A to the B list and take one off of the A-list at the request of the property owner. So we have a map that is going to be pulled up. There was a PowerPoint embedded in the agenda item. Can you make that larger at the top for me? I would like to go through the six properties and show you in relation to the county, and I think this is a good snapshot of our strategy of not managing islands because it does not make economic sense. Our strategy in this program is buying in holdings. Stuff that we surround, or expanding what we have. Because typically, when you see these quarters, that is when you get the environmental benefits. The first property that is being recommended in the top left is the Nu touch property. This property is 24 acres. It is adjacent to Lake George state force that is managed by the for service and it had 10 of the 21 criteria which is the minimum threshold for feasible acquisition. We have had initial discussions with the water management district and they are interested in partnering in the acquisition on this piece. The next one you will see is the Morgenstern. The ones that we are adding or making changes to our the blue and the fuchsia. Is what my teams tell me. Those both look the same to me. The next one is the Baylor piece. This is a large piece that the property owner asked us to review. Requested that we remove from the A-list at this point in time. It does not mean the deal is dead. We have had talks with Mr Baylor for probably the last 20 years and they kind of go like this. We will continue to engage Mr Baylor because it is an attractive piece for us into the future. The Morgenstern piece is the next one that is being added to your A-list. Again, this is in holding of the Lake George state forest. Where you see Morgenstern, and Nu-Touch, there's about 35,000 acres that have been conserved by three partners. Thus, water management District, and the state. This was the first 8000 acre large piece we bought in 1986 with our original referendum. I think it is important to share that since then, because of I think because of our management practices, this is the second-highest nesting population of bald eagles in the continental US. The next property down to the rate at 3 o'clock is Atlantic Center for the Arts, the one we are recommending move from the A, the advisory committee and staff is recommending move from the A list to B list. The next new property that came in the door, 306 UB piece. At the bottom is deep Creek reserve, 3500 acres conservator. This partial would connect to the Carter Quail Ranch piece, the red piece that is considered for purchase by our partner, the Florida Forever Program. This is an important piece if we were able to get the Carter piece. Again, we have – it is adjacent to the preserve, so in line with the strategy to expand the footprint. This is right outside the Volusia conservation corridor, and through the center of the county, the corridor we are trying to develop. The next piece is double Eagle, keep scrolling down. Double Eagle, at the very bottom here. Councilman Santiago, you can see – you asked to include Farmton on the map, it is orange and light blue... Is that correct? There. You can see the Farmton local plan which is included in there, 47,000 acres, and 32,000 has been conserved through the Farmton local plan. Directly south of that is delay corning piece you approved the last time we brought to Council, and adjacent to that is another piece that has come in the door as an easement, 490 acres, Double Eagle property. In the wildlife corridor. Initial discussions with department of agriculture, they want to move on on the purchase. This, of course would be an agricultural easement, we try to balance for ownership, to provide access and ownership. We balance with easements to award good private stewardship of the land. Next is the McMillan piece, if you're going up in a clockwise fashion. This is 213 acres adjacent to a pocket of many conservation easements, as you can see there, that we purchased, with the 2000 program with them water management District. Again, the water management District typically would want to partner with us on this one because it is adjacent to other things that we owned together. The last piece for your consideration today is to add to the A-list is the TT Ranch, 533 acres. Adjacent to the county owned and county jointly owned with the water management District and wire grass preserve. We were to acquire the property and expand the preserve to 1900 acres. This is the proposed A list. I know you during public participation, Atlantic Center for the Arts stay on the A-list, not B-list. A list is not guaranteed acquisition, and what we brought to the committee, and who endorsed in what we are bringing here today, to you. One of the things that we will continue to work with the Atlantic Center for the arts, regardless if they are on the A or B list. We will try to get the deal across the finish line. When you hear the speakers today it's a policy decision whether to keep it on A or move to B. You have our recommendation but will try to work to get the deal across the finish line. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, Brad. David Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: Can you pull the map further south? I want to make sure I understand some of the properties, if I could, Brad. The picket piece here. 40 acres. That is on this list? BRAD BURBAUGH: It has been approved and on the A list. This is an in holding of wire grass preserve, surrounded by a preserve that we own. DAVID SANTIAGO: Good to know. TT Ranch, this blue piece here, is being proposed to add to the A list. BRAD BURBAUGH: That's correct, we have a willing seller for feasible acquisition. DAVID SANTIAGO: This grey area, this is already conservation? BRAD BURBAUGH: This is conservation corridor. We have conserved about 41,000 acres. DAVID SANTIAGO: By the way, the representative from Farmton here, this is fantastic. Going north. Please. Talk to me – can you tell me what is going on – I don't see it here – what is going on in these areas? I know I've got a lot of purple out there right now. I'm going to continue to go north in the county here. What is going on – is there any action going on between what we already have conserved and East? BRAD BURBAUGH: At this point in time, we don't have any applications. This is a willing seller program, so we do not have any applications for acquisitions in this area. SPEAKER: (away from mic) DAVID SANTIAGO: Where's the loop? I'm kidding. I'm interested in what is happening because I think you can see, I think what we are seeing, and continue to see, a lot of westward movement, as it comes to more and more development. I think that is what is going to happen. The east is already built out. That's all the questions I have, I will listen to others. Thank you, Mr. Chair. JEFFREY S BROWER: Danny Robins? DANNY ROBINS: In terms of the ACA property, I know there were recommendations, moving parts and stuff going on. Is there a downfall to keeping that on the A-list for now or is there a timeframe? Can we take it off for the future? I know there's some discrepancies, I want to be fair across the board. BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. The resolution allows council to move from A or B list or acquire properties. The Council can say they want to acquire it and it will happen. Keeping it on the A list, it would not be an adverse action. DANNY ROBINS: I raise some concerns about it but I want to be diplomatic and fair and make sure it doesn't hurt the applicant or the owner or the representation in any way. To begin still, you know – BRAD BURBAUGH: I agree, and Nancy the CEO ACA has been a good partner. We would certainly acquiesce if that is council's wish. TROY KENT: The great decision we made of approving you to the director of community services. Thank you for the hard work you put it daily. That being said, Councilman Santiago, I thought was going somewhere I was going to go with this which was, sometimes I hear my councilmembers remind me of what is happening of what is happening in Ormond, your district. I can't help but notice, there is nothing in Ormond Beach or I believe District 4, with these acquisitions with Volusia Forever. I know you said has to be a willing seller, but I am hoping we can get them love up in district 4, and acquire some more properties here. BRAD BURBAUGH: We have a 1200 acre piece that we have worked with our state partners to acquire along the loop, and we will add to the 6000 acres that is North Penn, Bulow, directly south of Bulow. We are looking at expanding that corridor to about 7000 acres with the acquisition. The state is about to make an offer to the owners. TROY KENT: You are scratching me where itch. When will this take place? The answer tomorrow is a good answer. BRAD BURBAUGH: Truthful answer is that acquisitions are a winding road. I will keep you updated. I will tell you the state is ready to move on a lot of these properties, and if they are not getting responses from the land owners, they will move on from this property. The beauty of us bringing our properties to the state, we already have a relationship with the property owners and a relationship with the state. We kind of facilitate some dialogue there and also, the property owners have a local contact that can ease some of the concerns and talk them through the process. TROY KENT: Good to hear. I can tell you, our at-large member Mr Johansson and are chairman Mr Brower would equally as much as the beach for district 4 residents is important to individuals as the loop. Hearing that is promising and I hope we can follow through with it. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you. Can you zoom out on that? So, you said 41,000 acres, I think? Under some type of conservation. BRAD BURBAUGH: In the Volusia conservation corridor, that is the corridor that, up to tire Bay JAKE JOHANSSON: How much total in Volusia County? BRAD BURBAUGH: How much total conservation? All partners, 250,000 acres. JAKE JOHANSSON: 260,000. What percentage is that? BRAD BURBAUGH: High. (Multiple speakers) JAKE JOHANSSON: I remember a couple years ago people were toting 33%. BRAD BURBAUGH: 33. JAKE JOHANSSON: 33%. I will ask Clay later but the question I have for staff, George, later is, when we're talking about conservation versus development, what is the right percentage? It cannot be a percentage, I like the corridor thing, but at what point do we find ourselves balanced and what is the right balance for the future? BRAD BURBAUGH: I will, if I may – research and form number on a percentage, that has been cited before. It was an old number so let me get the updated – and see if there's any updates. JAKE JOHANSSON: Sure. BRAD BURBAUGH: In terms of conservation practice, and I shared this with Councilman Santiago. The rule of thumb is for every acre you develop, you should conserve another. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you, that is all I have. JEFFREY S BROWER: Brad, a question to maybe help vice chair. Can Troy Kent, or any Council member nominate a property? Just have to find a willing buyer. BRAD BURBAUGH: Any member of the public may make a nomination and her team will then engage with the property owner and see if they are willing seller. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, I have a comment but I will save it for comments. Any other questions? Does anybody have a motion at this point? We have members of the public that want to speak, and we can hear them first before you do. David Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: A motion (away from mic) TROY KENT: I'm happy to second. JEFFREY S BROWER: You need a microphone. DAVID SANTIAGO: One moment, Mr. chair. I moved to approve item number four with the modification to leave Atlantic Center for the Arts on the A list. JEFFREY S BROWER: Is there a second to the motion? Second by Matt Reinhart. Comments and debate. DAVID SANTIAGO: The reason why did that modification, there is no harm in living on the A or B but since it is already on the A, leave it there and let the staff continue to do the work. I don't think there is a need based on the comments to make any changes. That is the reason why I made them on vacation. And you, Mr Chair. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, let's hear from the public because that might lessen your talking points. Pat Northey, do you mind going first? It's good to see you here today. PAT NORTHEY: Always good to be seen. I actually like the motion very much (Laughs). Please leave the ACA on the a list. I do want to say as chair of your ECHO Committee which I think we will be here next meeting to have the same kind of presentation, your staff does phenomenal work. There always on top of things. This one, I think is a difference of opinion but this is an important project so please leave this on the a list as councilmember Santiago's motion speaks to. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Glenn Storch? SPEAKER: My name is Glenn Storch and I represent the ACA, but I also have had the pleasure of knowing Doris (unknown name) because I'm old enough to do that for years. She was passionate about Spruce Creek. Spruce Creek reserve area and everything else. This piece in the ACA right now was always supposed to be part of the Spruce Creek area. So when the staff approached ACA about buying this, they worked out the deal, they had the appraisals, they actually, this is what I'm concerned about when it says "the second property is recommended for removal from group A to group B due to (indiscernible) deal at this time" that does not make any sense to me. Because not only was there a deal reached, there was an offer made in writing by Volusia County with all of the deal terms. It was signed, this was their last offer, final offer, it was signed by the ACA then a contract was created to get to you to review it. So there was obviously a misunderstanding here, and is a misunderstanding that I cannot have happened if we're going to be losing a piece of property that should be in the Doris (unknown name) reserve. If it is a matter of coming back and talking about what the issues will be, fine. But our understanding because we have never heard of a problem that they want to reduce the price or we did not meet the terms, because like I say everything we had in writing indicated that we had met those terms. So we thought we were (indiscernible) but I apologize, bottom line is we will work together with you. How is that? Because it is so important to get this piece under public ownership. Now, let me tell you one more thing that is good. That map you showed with Farmton, we are getting to that another 3600 acres of conservation so I thought you would appreciate that as well and that will continue to go as we work on creating these habitat corridors. Any questions? Thank you. DAVID SANTIAGO: Can you add Troy's property to that list? SPEAKER: No. (Laughs) JEFFREY S BROWER: Nancy (unknown name). SPEAKER: Thank you so much. Nancy (unknown name) Executive Director at Atlantic Center for the Arts. Brad, I appreciate the promotion (Laughs). Brad, Tim and I have worked on the acquisition of this property for a long time and I appreciate their help on this. This is just part of my file (Laughs). If that gives you an idea. And I appreciate very much your pledge to continue to work with us to have this property be put into the Spruce Creek reserve. As you know (unknown name) was the founder of Atlantic Center for the Arts. If it was not for (unknown name) the seashore would be filled with strings of hotels and condos. The property where Atlantic Center for the Arts sits would have not been able to walk encouragement from Port Orange and probably would have been another golf course community and we have an amazing 69 acres that are environmentally important and as you all know, that an important part to the preserve to be able to provide access to our community members. So thank you so much for your support of this. I appreciate it greatly. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. John Nicholson. Out of turn. SPEAKER: John Nicholson, Daytona Beach side. Thank you Mr Santiago and Mr Kent. My passion is basically Daytona Beach needs to be represented. I ask you when is the last time a property was acquired with these funds from the city of Daytona Beach. Do you realize the city of Daytona Beach has contributed the most amount of funding for this program? We are the number one funding organization. Secondly, we have the least amount of property acquired from this, from the program before it. There's only been one property from Florida Forever and Volusia Forever from Daytona Beach. Museum of Arts and Sciences that's it. $750,000 and we have contributed what? 100 million or so? We are not getting it. And I understand your idea of willing seller, I understand that completely. But it does not take much for staff to look at property that would be of value in the city of Daytona Beach. And asked them: do you want to sell? It was a fantastic property for sale on the river and asked our manager. "No, we want that for development." But we had an opportunity to get property on the river, 40 acres, at an extremely low price. And we did not. All the county had to do was ask. Alright? So I'm asking you one, absolutely, acquire the Atlantic City-- the art center. It is needed. We want to keep things of that nature for future generations. Secondly, you have a gentleman here who happen to like a lot. Every time he comes to the city commission, he acquires more open space for the city of Daytona Beach. I think he has acquired so far 30, 40,000 acres for free for the County and the city. Every time Glenn comes in, here's another 1000 acres, here is 6000 acres, here is 2000 acres. That is what we need. The development, when they want to develop these large areas, something has to be given back to the county. We should not always have to buy. They are making tons of money. Give us a little payback for the money we are generating for you. Pat Northey, I love you to death, but $1 million a year for the trails, Daytona Beach got zero money out of ECHO Forever. So when we look at these things, sometimes a little balance, a little fair play, does not hurt. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. That concludes public comments on item number four. Are there comments from the Council? I will just add a quick comment that I am pleased with the motion. I am pleased with keeping the ACA on it and I hope that will be worked out. It sounds like it should be able to be worked out quickly. Just to go to some of the points that were made, anybody can nominate a property and let it be vetted. It does require a willing seller. And the question of how much. In my mind, it is really not a question of percentage. What percentage of land should be preserved, what percentage of land we should develop, we've got enough preserved develop the rest. The real question for me is: get an airplane, fly over Volusia County and looked down and what you see is mostly water with land in between. So the question is: the status of that land and how it contributes to our quality of life, not a set percentage of what is right. What is right is what is happening with that land. What it is therefore to do. Is it a productive wetland? Is it something that is needed for the wildlife preserve? So I'm pleased with the direction we are going in the work that you all are doing in Volusia Forever and the Volusia corridor. So thank you for your hard work. The staff down there in the front row. Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you, chairman. Just briefly I will state that John, if you are amenable to it, I will coordinator meeting with Doctor Burbaugh and yourself and we can talk about some possible locations with Holly Hill, Daytona Beach, if that is possible. Brad Burbaugh will set that up. JEFFREY S BROWER: If there are no other comments, the motion on the floor is to approve the modification of leaving the ACA on. Motion by David Santiago, second by Matt Reinhart, all in favor say aye. Any opposed? Motion carries 7-0. Thank you. That brings us to item 5: draft ordinance limiting comments to verbal comments during the general comment period. Attorney Russ Brown. RUSS BROWN: Russ Brown Deputy County Attorney. November 7 2023, Council directed staff to bring an agenda item back to counsel to review the policy for the use of electronic media. Electronic media is defined as picture, audio, recording or any other electronic media in your current ordinance. Review of tectonic media for public comments. Attached the agenda item is a draft ordinance that would limit comments during the general comment period only. To verbal comments. We're only talking about the bookends of each side of the agenda, not the participation during an agenda item. If Council votes to move forward with the changes to the ordinance, the change will be advertised and brought back to council at a later date. I'm here to answer any questions and seek your direction. JEFFREY S BROWER: David Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, Chairman. Does this ordinance prevent anybody from communicating or sending any type of media to any of the Council members? RUSS BROWN: No, they can email or however media can be delivered. DAVID SANTIAGO: Gotcha. For clarity purposes, this would pertain when we open the meetings, when anybody can speak about a topic or at the end of the meetings we also have the public participation. Someone was on an agenda item that submit something can still display media? Is that correct? RUSS BROWN: That is correct. There is a memo rules were implemented we went back over them about a year ago and talk about case law where you can do reasonable time, place and manner restrictions and assuring an efficient meeting is run. In case law, you could limit that but in Florida there's a state statue I think it is 286.014 subsection 4, I might have the subsection wrong. That for agenda items there only certain things that the legislature allows you to do, mostly is procedurally for rules. Don't think because there is the language in there that you could limit the participant for an agenda item, the ability to show you things that would like to show you in terms of media. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you. You brought up another question for me. Are you aware or not, in the legislature you mention the legislature, does it allow anyone to put up any media items in the public hearings? RUSS BROWN: I've never been to legislator. DAVID SANTIAGO: I have been to several. RUSS BROWN: I haven't seen the comments or anything at the federal level. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you. Mr. Chair, if you like this is one of the items I brought forward, for the council. Unless there's other questions, if I can share my thoughts. JEFFREY S BROWER: Does anybody else have questions for staff first? DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, Mr. Chair. This came up in surfaces head, I don't number the day, but after one of the hearings a few months ago when something was being presented or we had some challenges, and I apologize for not pinpointting exactly. That is what brought it to light. We had a brief discussion here as a council and I brought it up. It's more if you want to call it a proactive approach in today's interesting world, to not give a platform for something that may or may not be inappropriate. I don't see this as a shutting down the public, in any way. People can still speak about whatever agenda item, or any item before the council. They can still communicate to us, send us their digital media. The purpose of the forum, unless I am wrong, is for them to appeal to us or share their grievance, or ideas to the council to make public decisions in the sunshine. The purpose of that podium is not to give someone a platform to air whatever they want. They can certainly speak what they want, but I am concerned, and the reason I brought it up again as I am concerned that there is going to be a time, if we don't have some checks and balances around us that someone is going to air something that was totally inappropriate, that shouldn't be. If we provide them a platform for it, then we will be scrambling. I think we were around the margins of it recently, very close. Didn't quite penetrated. Be a little bit forward thinking, and as Mr. Russ, and other hierarchy of office holdings, there is no giving someone a platform to display whatever media they so choose. If it is an agenda item, remember, they can come and present and submit under our rules and procedures and that will be televised. I am concerned with giving free rein for anything to be displayed to the public, and we are giving them a platform. That is the reason for the proposal. I don't think it is taking away anybody's right to speak or to appeal to the public, to their elected officials. Thank you, Mr. Chair. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Quick question for Russ, probably. After what Mr. Santiago said, it raised my attention to what came up before. Would it – a gentleman spoke about the flooding, that apparently the city manager or the County manager and staff are taking care of or at least looking at. I think to deny him the ability to show a few videos, or a few pictures or a few drawings of what is talking about would be important to me because it is action County takes. However, I am concerned about the platform. So, Russ, is there any way we can limit – and this is happened verbally – public comment at the beginning to things that are County Council or staff can take action on. Like, ending the war in Ukraine. We really cannot take action on that. Is it important? You bet it is. But can we and should we – could we actually limit those discussions? MICHAEL G DYER: in current rules adopted, you have a requirement that during general public time at the beginning and end of the meeting that while you can speak on items not on the agenda, but they need to be on matters that may warrant action by the county. Rules and ordinances are phrased differently, they mean the same thing. Something relevant to county business. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. That may mitigate some of our concerns and not encroach on people's ability to voice their thoughts on things that come to us. With the stipulation that they have 24 hours advanced notice, so Karissa can get the stuff and make sure it is OK media and the county manager and the County Attorney could take a look at it, make sure it is actionable, and if it is not, bring it to our attention and we can vote on it right now saying, "You have all seen it. Do you want to hear it or not?" Bottom line, folks, for me – three minutes is three minutes. I am going to probably be happy or not happy if it is something beyond my – and we sat and listened to three minutes of stuff that is beyond our control before, in verbal comment, as well. I am going to air on the side of caution, however, not interrupt people's ability to speak for three minutes. Keep on hammering home that it's gotta be an actionable item, and review this stuff. That is all I have. MICHAEL G DYER: Just to clarify, the 24 hour rule, is really to do a virus check. JAKE JOHANSSON: Maybe we can then add that anything that is going to be put other than verbal be provided to the County Council members prior to the meeting so we can review it, and express our concern to you, if it is not actionable. JEFFREY S BROWER: Matt Reinhart? MATT REINHART: Thank you, I'm going to go back to Mr Johansson. My understanding, then, it is sent to us prior, before. We make a decision during the council to whether to allow them to show it? JAKE JOHANSSON: We would opine whether it is it actionable or not. There is a lot of stuff I don't know...I don't want to see, but tt's important that if we're ever going to take action on it, that we need to see it. MATT REINHART: Go ahead. RUSS BROWN: I was going to say, you always, Mr Johansson and members of Council, have the ability as a point of order if somebody is before you, if you don't get is a matter to come before you as an agenda item or action item for you you can have a point of order at that point and say, "Point of order this is not a matter before the Council, I would like to – this is not a public comment – there is no reason to hear it." JAKE JOHANSSON: I understand. I would like to have it in the rule so we don't have to have the discussion right then and there, and try to stop somebody from speaking for three minutes. RUSS BROWN: Yes, sir. I just tried to stay on the agenda now it says, like we talked about, it is supposed to be where you are likely to come before for you so you have it in the rules before you now. DAVID SANTIAGO: A point of clarification, if I may. I just don't want us to go off the rails a little bit here because Jake, I get your point. The proposal before us addresses nothing to – anything someone says verbally. They still have the right to appeal to their government. This ordinance, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't say they cannot speak about any topic, for the most part, that is not what we are doing today. We are only specifically speaking about the TV, whether or not we want to give, during those two particular times of the meeting, someone the capability to broadcast whatever they want to the meeting. That is all this proposal does. It doesn't prevent anybody's speech, am I correct? JAKE JOHANSSON: My problem is, I don't want somebody like the gentleman who came today to not be able to show a diagram or to visually show his point. DAVID SANTIAGO: He can email us before. JAKE JOHANSSON: If he emails, public is not able to see it. The theater, we can prevent it, and have the chairman can say, so-and-so who said this, we are not going to show it. I think that's the compromise. I'm with you on the concern. DAVID SANTIAGO: I get it, but compromise – sorry, Mr. Chair having good dialogue. I will hear what my colleagues have to say and that motion. MATT REINHART: I get the guy that comes up and wants to talk about things that are completely beyond control. I'm a visual guy, pictures speak a thousand words. I don't have issue with him showing me a diagram of the flooding. That is the way I am looking at it. Just so you know where I stand, thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Your name was on it – you took it off? TROY KENT: One of these. JEFFREY S BROWER: Just... Let me hear your motion. DAVID SANTIAGO: I moved to permanently table item number five. DON DEMPSEY: Second. DAVID SANTIAGO: It has nothing to flaw the sword on, discussion I hear with the Council has to say. JEFFREY S BROWER: David Santiago moved to table item number five, second by Don Dempsey. Any debate? All in favor to permanently table number five, say aye? Any post? I don't get to make my brilliant speech. And the public wanted to speak. I'm sorry. We will let you speak. Do you still want to speak? One is good. John Nicholson still wants to speak. Connie Colby, are you still here? Did you care to speak, Connie? John Nicholson. SPEAKER: John Nicholson, Daytona Beach side. The last thing floored me. I've been coming to couple meetings, 40 years worth. I was hearing Dwight Lewis made us, 8 o'clock in the morning, and the meeting started at nine and asked him one time at eight, two ladies were before me and I did not get a chance to speak. That three minutes kind of extended itself to half an hour. I had to wait another nine hours to speak. Wasn't happy about it. I'm glad you changed it. But now, what I have seen over the years is someone holding a sign with a phone number when running for office, or what you call it, website or whatever. So they can get funding so if you want to support me, send money here. I think those are inappropriate at a meeting. There are all kinds of things that they hold up, and when you stop this, you allow them to do anything they want. There are things that are not appropriate. When you're running for office, this is not the place to run for office. The idea of making a comment then saying, "I am writing for District 4", I don't mind that. But to sit here, and go for votes, rather than something that pertains to all of the county. I know I speak in awful lot and if anybody's going to be offended it's going to be me. And I'm not. If you put limits on things that are nonverbal, like photos, or signs, or whatever, I am happy with that. They can say whatever they want, but what they can project is something that I think you have to look at. They give. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. That concludes item 5. Item 6, a discussion on implementation of milestone inspection fee and compliance process for aging condominiums and cooperative buildings. CLAY ERVIN: Clay Ervin, director of growth and resource management. State law has put in place requirements for buildings three stories or greater that are in condominium or cooperative situations. The critical thing is the age of the structure based on the issuance of the initial CO. This is in reaction to the Surfside accident occurred several years ago. The question is whether or not to do these or not. It is not here. We have to do this. The question today is whether or not you feel it's important enough for us to impose a fee for staff time in conducting the research and following through and implementing the state law. Staff is aware that we have multiple properties, well over 50, with condominiums which we have 80+ structures that are subject to this rule. Many have started coming into compliance. We want to make sure that we are prepared because we do have to send out notices this June in order to comply by the December 31, 2024 deadline. So, we see that it will require staff time to document, manage and oversee the inspection process. We do not have to conduct the actual inspections, the actual inspections are conducted by the condominiums who hire a design professional licensed to conduct the inspection. We will follow-up to ensure the Condominium Association, if it passes phase 1, nothing more is done they need to reinspected 10 years. If, however, there is a potential issue, they have to follow-up, we have to make sure they are doing so. Staff has made a recommendation of approximately of $250 of the permit, inspection fee that covers the staff time and cost. JEFFREY S BROWER: Questions for staff? Matt Reinhart? MATT REINHART: I think I asked this during the agenda update, that is the fee along most coastal areas or areas that charge that and have that kind of structure? CLAY ERVIN: Yes, sir. We included that, some researchers it is you can see it is kind of ranging. We are in line with other counties. MATT REINHART: Other counties. And due to the extent of the inspection and what happened down south, obviously, not to say the other inspections are not thorough, in light of these recent events (Laughs) You really have to take that into consideration. So thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: No more questions sir. I like to make a motion to approve the staff's recommendation of $250 for milestone inspections and the follow on enforcement of enforcement finds based on the research. JEFFREY S BROWER: Is there a second? Second by Matt Reinhart. Motion was by Jake Johansson. Discussion? Debate? No questions? All in favor of the $250 fee, say aye. Any opposed? Motion carries 7-0. CLAY ERVIN: Point of clarification really quick, because also included was a discussion of a fine if they are not in compliance and we were going to be applying the $250 today is the fine as well. JEFFREY S BROWER: The motion was as presented. CLAY ERVIN: Just wanted to make sure. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Item number seven, direction on possible repeal of chapter 78 – 1 waiting period and records check for purchase of firearms. Russ Brown is back. RUSS BROWN: Good evening, Russ Brown, Deputy County Attorney. As previously directed by counsel before you for direction as the draft ordinance repealing chapter 78 –1 waiting period and record checks for purchase of firearms. As stated in the ordinance, on November 10 at eight the voters of the state of Florida passed an amendment to the Constitution in article 8 section 5. The I allowed local governments to establish a 305 day waiting period for the sale of firearms to any area where the public is access. The minute also allowed each county to have the records check in connection with any firearm occurring in the county. In 1999, the County adopted ordinance 78 –1 which set the bleeding period at three days and a criminal history background check for the purchase of handguns. If counsel wishes to proceed with the ordinance, we will take the direction and bring it back to you with that ordinance repealed. And I'm here to answer any questions you may have. Along with Mr Chris Ryan who did the majority of the work, but lost his voice today. So I am his voicebox. JEFFREY S BROWER: That's what happened. Danny Robins? DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, Chair. I don't have any questions myself. I would like to make the motion to appeal immediately 78-1 waiting period for gun sales on public property and strike it from the Volusia County code of ordinances. JEFFREY S BROWER: Is there a second? Second by Don Dempsey to eliminate the waiting period. Jake Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: I do have just a few questions to clarify. Why would it be different for a licensed firearms dealer to have to go three days, but a gun show or personal sale not go three days? RUSS BROWN: Federal firearms lessons for example, you have to follow the license requirements which I believe requires them at all times to do a background check. This was known as, colloquially, the gun show loophole. So that is why the ordinance was created, because you could go into a private buyer at a gun show and buy a weapon without a background check. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. Has the Fed made efforts to get rid of the three-day...? RUSS BROWN: I know that occasionally gets discussed, but I think it came up as recently as last year (Laughs) I think it came up as recently as last year. But it has not passed. JAKE JOHANSSON: And so, do you know, Russ, why we have the three day wait period? RUSS BROWN: So there is a background check, so that is conducted on lands with the public has access. JAKE JOHANSSON: So is it the time it takes to do the look, or is it like a cooling off period for hotheads and people that just want a gun right now to do something stupid? RUSS BROWN: I suppose, I thought it was primarily for the background but I suppose it has both applications. It could also potentially be a cool off period. I always thought it was for the background. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. That is the only question I have. I will wait for a comment from Danny. JEFFREY S BROWER: Danny Robins. Were there any more questions for staff? JAKE JOHANSSON: No questions. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you for allowing me to bring this in front of you today. There is a notion out there that if we can just ban guns or throw restrictive issues and roadblocks up that all of the violence would end. I believe in my heart that could not be further from the truth. If you research some of these over restrictive overreach policies evidence will show you is indisputable. These policies existed in Paris where poor folks were shot by a certain type of rifle which was banned and instructions were in place. The same policies and gun free zones and reaching policies like this were in place where Virginia Tech happened, Columbine, Sandy Hook, Aurora, Parkland, any instance and I mean every instance where the most innocent lives have been taken, there have been these rejections. Compare that to the NRA convention or any national gunship or opening day in deer season Florida where you have 100% of gun access and nobody gets hurt. The matter is, guns do not kill people. Bad people, sick people, evil people kill people as we see everyday in places like California, Illinois, New York, Maryland, and the list goes on. But it happens every day. It has nothing to do with the firearm, in my opinion, public or private sale, your party affiliation, whatever. Repealing the policy is everything to do with good versus evil, and forcing free people, forcing them into a state of unarmed helplessness. The very existence of the second amendment is designed purposefully to empower the people to be able to defend themselves, to include resisting the force of tyranny. Used against them, when someone to include the government steps over natural rights given to them by God. In my opinion, that is why the second amendment exists. To be that equalizer and give our people access to firearms on their terms, and not the government's. This debate is irrefutable conclusion if you are forced into unarmed helplessness, you are unarmed and helpless. What horrible, irresponsible, suicidal condition to live in. When you not only something to say, but the most important part is to have the ability to do something. And this ordinance come in my opinion, restricts that. And with that being said, I have to ask the question of why we would keep it. But in closing, I will get philosophical, I will leave you with these four special words woven into the very fabric of everything that we do and that we know about as Americans and I will just say, "Shall not be infringed". Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Counter argument. In the research done by Harvard business school, (unknown name) in 22 indicated waiting period laws can in some cases delay gun homicides and suicides by roughly 17%. I can't verify those numbers, but my thought is that a three day waiting period does not deny a person a firearm. It delays a personal firearm. And regarding sending somebody home helpless and that it become suicidal, is troublesome to me because if I feel that my life is in danger, I'm not going to pick up the phone and find out where the nearest gun show is. If I am in that much duress, I'm going to go to my buddy's house and ask him for his weapon. Which is illegal to do. If I'm in duress, I'm going to call the police. Granted, there are times where people have called the police and the police have said there is nothing they could do and the person gets shot. But there's a good chance that happened on a weekday and there is no gun show available. There's no private person they could sell them a gun. They might have a friend that can sell them a gun, but apparently that is legal within the privacy of household. So I struggle with this because I want the freedom of people to do what they want, but I also know nefarious actors take advantage and occasionally, buy weapons because they know they are not going to get checked. So I am torn on this for those reasons. For every piece of research on both sides, I looked at the NRA's research and I looked at some of the academic research. Some have said the Brady Act, has done good, some is that it made no difference. And so, I'm kind of in the I like to wait mode right now unless somebody can convince me otherwise. JEFFREY S BROWER: Matt Reinhart? MATT REINHART: Forgive my ignorance, just a quick question and is a little off topic but I will get to it, our current new law that went into effect with respect to concealed weapons, and I know we are getting off topic a little bit, if you already had a concealed weapons permit that allows you to do what? Even though you are allowed to carry concealed in the state of Florida, without a permit, does that allow you to buy the weapon? RUSS BROWN: You can walk into a store and buy one. MATT REINHART: And that's part of the concealed weapons permit. I do carry when even the Florida statute back in the day allowed me to come and law enforcement allowed you to carry a weapon, still elected to care the concealed weapons permit for that purpose and I still will so I can go out and purchase that weapon. In other words, I don't have to wait the three days wherever I go because I have a concealed weapons permit. I am going somewhere with that. Yet, I struggle as well, Mr Johansson, with respect to that. It is hard for me because I don't have that limit on me. I can go out right now and buy it. I'm curious to hear a little more. I see Mr Robins, I'm curious to hear more. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, Mr Chair. I look at all sides of this but something that I found out first off as a police officer and studying FBI, crime reports, Comsat reports, FTLE reports they send out, in living that lifestyle and seeing it on the street in the most violent city probably, definitely in Volusia County, Daytona Beach, but also probably next to I would say Orlando or Miami when it comes to violent crime, if you study that and try to understand, if somebody is going to do an act, no different than a speeding sign, if somebody wants to speed, they're going to speed. If somebody's going to commit this heinous crime, you see it all over, they will do it, if you look at the crime reports, cars, are we going to put a three day waiting period on cars? There's a lot more deaths by cars. A lot more deaths by butter knives, hammers, screwdrivers, steak knives. So there comes a point in time where we have to look at, realistically, why this is in place. Is it worth punishing the 99.9999999% proportion of our population for one or two knuckleheads that are evil in society? Do we want to continue this, in my opinion, overreaching policy to the majority of the first idea in Volusia County? My answer is no. It should not be come in my opinion, up to the government to really regulate. We have red flag laws now to answer Mr Johansen's question and concern. Where if there is an issue that arises, the first thing people have to do is recognize or report the issue. If you look at all of these other instances, the red flags were there! People fail to say something, in some cases they called the police department many times, Aurora, Paris, but the lack of action hurt that. We have the red flags law, our Sheriff's Department does concealed weapons courses, training courses, we have better mental health programs. And really what this comes down to, when is enough enough? And I want our people to be armed in Volusia County. I believe it is, like I said before, and equalizer. It levels the playing field. When Joe Schmoe is able to make a threat, or encounters you and your family with that threat of violence, for you to be able to act accordingly, without government involved. This is not a new issue, it is a strong issue. But I think we have enough things in place now to justify a straight repeal on this ordinance. DON DEMPSEY: I agree with Danny, 100%. Jeff, you gave us each a copy of the Constitution. And Danny hit it right on the head once said "shall not be infringed". Not banned... Infringed. Interfered with in any way. Using this kind of logic, you are saying we don't like drugs, all drugs should be illegal, and you will never be able to get drugs again. We know how that war on drugs came out 40 years ago, even though it is a felony to have certain types of drugs, being in my business, I could probably make a couple phone calls right now and have us all have a bunch of drugs here in a few minutes. Just because something is illegal doesn't mean the bad guys can't get their hands on it. We got laws against drugs, you can still have drugs. We are going to have laws against bad guys getting guns, guess what? They can get guns! Whether we have the cool off. Or not, they are going to get the guns. All we are doing now is punishing law-abiding citizens from their ability to get a gun quickly. Because the bad guys are going to get the guns quickly, or already have them, they are not afraid of this cool off period, if they want to get a gun and do something bad with it, they're going to do it. So I don't want to create anymore restrictions on people's gun rights. Then we already have through the state and the feds. I think the county is overstepping its powers by imposing more restrictions on people that we really should not be doing. I am with Danny. Thanks. JEFFREY S BROWER: To clarify that, I am going to lose my voice as well, the county did not do that, a previous County Council did, restricted them. I don't want that blamed on those people. I brought that copy of the Constitution, because for me it is very simply a constitutional issue. I could have lots of thoughts about it, but I say frequently that our highest responsibility is to protect our God-given Constitutionally protected rights. And when you read the Second Amendment, it does not give any wiggle room, the right for people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. For 200 years we have been infringing! We have added law after law and it is time that we stop. And protect that right. Then if you look at article 6, clause 2, I think this is important. It says the Constitution and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof, in pursuance thereof of the Constitution, not of anything else, but the laws have to be made that align with the Constitution. And all treaties made... Under the authority of the United States shall be the supreme law of the land. And the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding. The law of the state of Florida does not require us to do this. It gives us an option to infringe, which I believe is against the Constitution. Then in article 3, lastly, it says the judicial power of the United States shall be vested in one Supreme Court. The judicial power shall extend in all cases to law and equity, and goes on to describe different laws. Then it says is in all other cases, before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction meaning lower court can appeal to the Supreme Court. And then their job is not to interpret the Constitution, nowhere in this constitution does it give the Supreme Court the order to interpret what is clearly written here. They have to judge the law by the law of the Constitution and the facts presented to them. So for me, Danny this is going to surprise you, I agree that this gives us an opportunity to roll back some infringements that we are clearly prohibited by the Constitution. We have a responsibility to the public? Yes we do. Is there any laws that prohibit? Yeah there are! There are hundreds of them. Like you said Don, the bad guys are not listening to that. They have guns. I think it is more important, I think our chief responsibility is to keep our fidelity to this document, and roll this back. Any other comments? We have one member of the public who would like to disagree with me (Laughs)... Dana McCool. SPEAKER: Dana McCool, I reside in District 5, I believe I talked to most of you this morning regarding this. I want to tell you this. On January 24, of 1981, (Name) Wilson walked into a shop, purchased a gun without a waiting period, and the next morning committed suicide with said gun. The fact that my mother committed suicide left an impression on me throughout my life. She did it with a handgun because it was no cooling off period. That's personal, and I will put I over E since we are all speaking constitutions. I have not heard awful things about when people do not get guns, but I have heard horrible things about when people do get done. This waiting period was designed because back when we did this amendment, there were no red flag laws in the 1700 and 1800s. We did not have the capacity of machinery that we do today, we did not have that, we could not speak to it, we could not speak to domestic violence back then, or they did not speak. They did not speak about mental illness back then, when constructing this. And I believe that the founding fathers wrote this in a way that the forwarding fathers could interpret to what our society needed. I am asking is not to be victims of hyper originalist approach. I believe that Second Amendment is sacred, I believe in carrying guns, I believe in responsible gun ownership. I do not believe in taking this measure away. Because sometimes people do not protect themselves in our society. And as legislators we are tasked with that for members of our public. Infringement needs to break the terms or try to undermine, and I do not believe that anyone that is in favor of waiting on this. To do proper background checks or for a cooling-off time wants to undermine the spirit of 2A. No one wants to. But you must admit that we live in different times today. The Second Amendment never guaranteed instant delivery of guns. Back then they had problems at the port with getting their hands on guns. This was written so that we had guns. But as we advance, we also have circumstances in today's societies that must be addressed by people that are put into powers of position. And that is you, for us. There was no way to understand when they were forming a new country that these things would appear in our society today. I am as liberal Democrat as you can possibly get, but I am a staunch gun advocate. But I'm also about protecting those who cannot protect themselves. And I want to remember this last thing, I have not heard horrible things about people when they do not get guns. But I have heard horrible things about when people do. Please keep this in mind when you pass this. It is the last bastion of safety for those that cannot protect themselves. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Any other comments from the Council? We have a motion on the floor to appeal the waiting period and reference check for purchase of firearms at publicly accessible buildings. Motion is by Danny Robins, seconded by Don Dempsey. All in favor say aye... TROY KENT: Chairman, I want to speak. Thank you, I appreciate Mr Robbins bringing this up and anyone who is spoken on it from the dais. I want to publicly thank Ms McCool. The brutal story... Brutal. And tough for any family member or kid to deal with. A lot of guts to come here and do that. Thanks. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Well said. All in favor of the motion, say aye, and your post, motion carries a 7-0. Item 8, direction on dissolving the code enforcement board and replacing it with a special magistrate. Clay Ervin... CLAY ERVIN: Good afternoon, Clay Ervin, also Christopher Ryan who did a large amount of work on this. Unfortunately he is also having difficulty speaking today. This is following up on the directive that the Council provided to us. Counsel identified a concern with some of the issues with code enforcement Board with regards to maintaining membership. Mr Dyer referenced other court cases where we are dealing with making sure that we can meet the recommended membership. Florida statutes 162.203 provides clarity that a local government may implement code enforcement through a code enforcement board or through a special magistrate. This draft ordinance in front of you does that. If this is the direction the Council seeks, then stuff will take that ordinance, and work it through. There are some administrative procedures that need to be cleaned up, we could be able to get this back to you second meeting in April, first meeting in May. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, questions for Mr Ervin? DAVID SANTIAGO: Motion to approve. JEFFREY S BROWER: David Santiago makes a motion to approve, going to a special magistrate, the second was by Jake Johansson. Comment? Debate, Matt Reinhart. MATT REINHART: Just a comment, thank you chair. I have been a participant of both, I said this before, I served on the code enforcement Board for the city of Daytona, a word code enforcement for the city of New Syrmona, and I can tell you from that perspective, I totally get individuals wanting to have the citizen participation of the code enforcement Board, I totally understand that and respected, I was on that. However, in both cases I have seen it move much quicker and much more efficient when you have a special magistrate in play. I will tell you that difficult cases, we always avoided, and we sent it to a magistrate. I know that Mr Ryan, you can attest to that as well. That being said, I am in favor of this. Mr Santiago beat me to the punch on the motion. Thank you chair. DON DEMPSEY: You guys, I am 100% against this. I have been in this for 34 years, every day when I go to work I thank God for a jury system. A lot of times you get rogue judges, Matt, you and I are reasonable people. I do not know if you were on the code enforcement board ever but… I am telling you, 34 years of dealing with good judges versus bad judges is like night and day. My biggest fear is we getting rogue special magistrate. I have dealt with rogue special judges, and rogue procuring officers, magistrates, it is dangerous. There is a reason why we have nine people on the US Supreme Court, not one. There is a reason why there is seven of us appear, instead of one. When you have one person making all of the dispute -- decisions, they are a kindred that is what I am afraid of. The heavens -- we have seven people on the floor of the Supreme Court. If someone wants to take away a foot of your property you are entitled to 12 people on the jury before they take your property. There is a reason why there is safety in the multitude of counsel. There is a reason why our decisions are better debated among seven people, I am sure Jon would be scared to death if this Will County was left to be run by me alone. Imagine any single one of us up here alone, though being bounced out by six other voters. I know it is more efficient, faster, and it is more dangerous. We are affecting people's property rights. We hear people coming in here all the time talking about how they cannot deal with the county. They have problems with permits, code violations that we think are nonsense. We need the multitude of counsel. I do not care how difficult it is to get a full enforcement board, but we need to keep it. At all costs. Because I am telling you, healthy debate is the best thing for our US Supreme Court, which is the law of the land. The Florida Supreme Court, the law of our state. I mean, the House of Representatives… It is not one person, the Senate is 100 people… I mean, we need debate. You need debate on code enforcement. I would like to see jury nullification come back. Where if we could enforce (Laughs) Or enable the code enforcement board, you know what I'm talking about, because he is smiling. If the code enforcement Board had the chance to say, this is a ridiculous code, I do not think they should be enforced. This is too harsh on this applicant or property owner, they should be able to say, you know what, this does not make sense. It is not fair in the scenario. Get rid of it. I mean, that is where we should be headed. Not towards voting a king of the county to make all the decisions about people's use of their property. So I am really against this, guys. I hope I can convince you otherwise. Thanks. JEFFREY BROWER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, Chair. Don, you are hitting the nail on a lot of hits. County attorney, what is the process, or clay, what is the process for appeal if it goes to the magistrate? Will he come back before us? SPEAKER: The appeal process of a code board decision, whether it is your citizen, your board, or special rate magistrate remain the same. The file an appeal to Circuit Court. That is how the statute provides. So if you do go to a special magistrate, yes, I realize there is a policy that should be discussed here, that Mr Dempsey just outlined one of the viewpoints. A process itself for enforcing it, and appealing it remains the same. The question is, who makes the decision? DANNY ROBINS: With that being said, I think the closer we can keep this to home, in a group of people, based on what you are saying, and it makes sense… I thought I was for this at first, but I can see the importance of our people, that are intimate with Volusia County, that are intimate maybe with the scenario, to be able to trump that. Or shoot some of this nonsense down, at our level. So I will vote in support of you, Don. JEFFREY BROWER: David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: We have some good debate going on here this Tuesday, wow… This is good, I like it. Oh no, I said we would get out of here at 8:15 PM, so I have to talk for a little bit. (Laughs) You know, I made the motion… I have had some experience with this. I have never been a special magistrate, but local government, where we did transition from an enforcement board to a special magistrate. And it ran well. It still runs that way today. I do not see this as adopting a king. Because, the king has the last say. Right? So, that is not the case with the special magistrate. So would not necessarily rent them that title. Because people still have recourse to appeal. I have actually seen the contrary. I have seen special magistrate, in my experience in the past, be more lenient to the homeowner, and give them opportunity after opportunity to resolve whatever issue might be pending before them. So, I do not… I can live with both, to be quite honest with you, Don. This is not a major topic for me. But I think we have struggled with people -- keeping people in there. I have seen special magistrates work fine. And more towards the consumer side. That is just personal speaking. And they are not taking. I would just ask a question, make sure I am not mistaken, Mike. If the ordinance that would be coming before us could come back written in a fashion that any ruling of the special magistrate can be appealed to this counsel, then they have a body of seven make the final determination. SPEAKER: Mr. Chair, that is not permitted by the statute. The appeal pacifically directs the -- the statute specifically directs any of the appeals to go to Circuit Court. We can do, you have control over the magistrate themselves. (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: Yes. DAVID SANTIAGO: The magistrate works for us. They work for the County Council. If we find them heavy-handed, whatever it is, special magistrate not working within our boundaries, that person can be dismissed immediately under contract, right? So, I could live with both, Don. I just… I have seen them work. Whatever this council wants to go, no big deal for me. JEFFREY BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: I brought this up with some of the other boards. Mr Dempsey brings up some good points. And, if you look back to some of the decisions we have made since we have been here, we have advisory boards that we have gone against, or contrary to their advice, and here we are wanting to keep a code enforcement Board that may or may not be doing things that you are in tune with. Or, or, or, in line with. With your thoughts on things. Obviously, I like this. We did it in The City of Orange. There are many counties in the surrounding areas that do it. The special magistrate does in fact work for us. We can hire them, fire them, get back up guys. And get people that align with the way we think. And for the most part, special magistrates do have the feeling of what is going on in the county. And I also concur with Mr Santiago, that by and large, sometimes staff walks away and goes… What did he do that for? He gave him 60 more days, the grass is this high… So I think special magistrates are, by and large… Well-balanced in how they make their decisions. They are also well versed in the code laws, and what to do, and when to do it. As they get to know the frequent flyers as well. So, I support this because I have seen it work, in the town I worked for, the city I work for. I have seen it work all around the country. And it is well established here in Florida. And as I understand from the county attorney, we are already paying for somebody to be there, so it is no added cost. And it frees up some of our public. Now, the con is, you are taking some public out of the governing of our city. But, I have also seen, not particularly this code enforcement Board, but I have seen times where code enforcement boards have acted due to personality, not due to code and ordinance issues. When issuing fines. I definitely have not seen that here, but I have seen it before. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Don? For me, you demonstrated the need for a seven-member board. You… I was on the fence, really I had both feet over the side of, go to the special magistrate, because of efficiency. Because of fairness. However, I have sat in code enforcement board meetings. And often you see the same thing happen, one member will speak up, and give more information to the other people. And it kind of changes the direction. I want to be… Everybody on this council wants to be absolutely fair to people that appear before code enforcement boards. It is a grueling process, both for staff, and for our residents. The people that depend on us, that go there. I will support, I will vote 'no'on the special magistrate, because of what you just demonstrated to me. You changed my mind. And that happens frequently on this counsel. We speak to… To each other. And convince each other that maybe there is a better way. However, I am going to support it, there is not a however to that. But I would like to add another idea, but I think whatever happens, if this vote goes for a special magistrate, or to the board as it is, there is something we can do that would solve a lot of issues, and give either a board or a magistrate relevant, direct information. And that would be… I would like to see the Council do this, to direct staff to have every one of our code enforcement agents where a body cam, just like the police do. Not because I do not trust the agents, but because it protects them from the public saying they lied… They cheated… They did whatever. But it also protects the public. It records exactly what happened in that conversation. It records what those violations are, in real time. And it is not that… For $10,000, I think we can get the six cameras, and everything that is needed to go with it. But that would be… Staff would have to research that, and bring it back. But I think that would solve a lot of the issues of trust to the public. And our desire to have the people treated really fairly. So… Matt Reinhart. MATT REINHART: Thank you, Chair. How many are currently on the code enforcement Board right now? Seven? OK. And I understand how we are finding it difficult to staff that board. Does this happen a lot? Remember we are relatively new, the only year, 1.5 years we have been in office. Would you say this is a traditional problem? CLAY ERVIN: It depends on the membership. We have had some situations where he have lost… (Away from microphone) for the most part we have been able to maintain a quorum. MATT REINHART: Traditionally this has been a board that is hard to staff? CLAY ERVIN: Yes sir. What you are seeing is to do with dates and everything else. We had consistency and membership that has helped us keep it going. MATT REINHART: Going back to the appellate process. So, whether it was a code enforcement Board, or magistrate, and the decision is not favorable to the citizen, the citizen has a right to appeal. It goes to a Circuit Court. Is that a judge or a jury? PAOLO SORIA: That would be a judge. MATT REINHART: Single judge, right? So it is a single judge again, who is going to handle the appeal. OK. Thank you. That was all the questions I had. I have seen this, like I said, from both sides. I have also seen code enforcement boards that have had members on there, and I'm not trying to disrespect them, but they did not know what to do. How to act. They did not know about the ordinance. A magistrate is… Versed in law. A code enforcement board member has to reverse themselves in the ordinances. They do not know it all. A lot of times. I have seen it happen. there are several that do. There are code enforcement boards… I have seen a code enforcement… The lady knows it backwards and forwards. But there are some boards that have board members that do not know. So I will say that. I guess the main point that I wanted to make is the fact that the appellate process, and I understand Mr Dempsey, your concern with the one a judge, the single person making that decision. But we do have an appellate process, and the appellate process is going to go to one person. A judge. Not a jury. Thank you. TROY KENT: Counsel, I was totally prepared to go with the direction of the special magistrate. In Ormond Beach, it is always who we dealt with for code issues and seemed to work out pretty good. There were some times I was scratching my head. And that is until Councilman Dempsey piped up. Because this is your wheelhouse. And again, you are dropping some pearls that are blessed with common sense. And I thank you for that. And I cannot continue unless I plugged this, even though you voted against every initiative I have ever brought forward... (Laughter) TROY KENT: You are betting a thousand year. So let me support Don Dempsey yet again, on a more serious note, your comments are well received. And I am going to support your comments, because I think it is the right thing. JEFFREY S BROWER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, chair. David, Jay, I don't know if there's a middle ground. You brought up an interesting scenario, I forget which subject, maybe last meeting, where we tried something out, Something for a while, and then we were going to sunset it. Should we come up with something... If this board gives us a problem, should we say if they can't get quorum three times, let us know, come back to us? If that happens, then we can go to this? DON DEMPSEY: I will tell you what will get more people on that board. This is probably scaring everybody over there legal... If we could go back to 200 years ago, I hate to say this, the whole purpose of a jury was not only to apply the law to the facts. But to see if the law applied to the facts was just. That is called jury nullification. They used it in the Underground Railroad, when these families would help runaway slaves, and they were caught aiding and abetting a runaway slave, and the defense attorneys were able to argue to a jury, even though they were caught red-handed, if you are against slavery, you can find the defendant not guilty, because you are against this law in general. It was another check and balance our system had. I think our code enforcement Board should not only be there to enforce the kind of ordinances to the potential violations, but they should also have the ability to say, you know what? This just doesn't make sense. This is been like this for decades, why are we now enforcing this law about the shell having to be the science of this high? Why are we doing this? I think they should be empowered with the ability to get rid of nonsense codes applied to certain facts situations. And that is where I would really like to see a code enforcement Board go. I can see click cringing right now, or praying. But that is where I think this should ultimately end up. DANNY ROBINS: Would it behoove us... Do we have alternates and code? Were we can have people in the hopper so we can guarantee we will always have a quorum. MICHAEL DYER: If I could... It is fine, all valid points. When I first started working with the county, one of the first boards I was assigned with the code enforcement Board. I worked with a number of citizen boards, always enjoyed doing that, code board is my favorite. Code board is a hard-working board, that and your appeal board of the hardest working words you've got. Attentive working folks that sit on that, they are sacrificing one day off a month minimum to sit and decide to difficult decisions. And you have seen them. Sometimes they are neighborhood disputes. Neighbor against neighbor. They are doing a good job. Whether you have a special magistrate or code board, I have not heard anybody, and your staff is not saying that they think the code board is doing a bad job, the opposite is true, I think they are doing a great job. You've seen more jurisdictions go to a special magistrate just I think, frankly, I think the land did 15 years ago, it is hard to get people. The land was having a problem with the cardboard, they couldn't get a quorum, so they finally decided that they went to a hearing officer. The process is the same, the state law specifies the process that would not allow a code board or hearing officer, special magistrate excuse me, to have legislative power to not apply ordinance that you have adopted. Now I will tell you, the reason why I liked code board. I could see what was not working, and staff could report back, and sometimes that resulted in recommendations to the Council to change in ordinance. Because we could see the enforcement process, for whatever reason, was not working out. I think that is still true today. Unfortunately, unlike some of your boards, you are kind of confined and what your code board can do, their job is to purely listen to facts, and issue decisions. It is common to you acting in a quasijudicial capacity, except in your case they have the potential of fines. I was just talking to Sabrina who currently works for code board, and Clay mentioned it, one of the challenges we are having is getting-- the statute specifies which occupations we should have represented. We cannot get an architect, we have tried. If you do stick with the code board, we really would need that. Honestly, it is difficult for an architect, because sometimes they may be doing business with the county, then they cannot do it. They may represent a certain section, maybe their witnesses for people in code board proceedings. It is just a harder profession to find, and probably more lucrative profession, who does not want to take one day off a month. I just wanted to say that, because your code boards roles are defined, your code board is doing a fine job. What I have heard staff say is that they think we are being sued because we do not have all the occupations currently represented right now. In the Vega litigation, I believe. We are arguing against it, we strive to have those positions filled, but it is an argument. So that's it. DANNY ROBINS: Do we need to pay these people? Is that controlled statutorily? Why exactly are we not getting... I would maybe like to keep an eye out for that. I think we can keep this the way it is is the feel I'm getting for it. And maybe we have a gentlemen's agreement where, hey, we need to address this. We are all kind of for it if it falls on his face here in the future, and we cannot get that other person, then we have to make a decision. Is that fair guys? DAVID SANTIAGO: I think we have taken more than two bites at the apple, several people here. JEFFREY S BROWER: Sabrina, you are the attorney assigned the board. I frequently do not have quorum? SEBRINA SLACK: In the last year, we probably once did not have a quorum, but the issue we also have is how many members have devote to take action, which is a little bit more. So that is the only time we run into a problem. If one of our members has to recuse themselves because they are involved in a project, and they recuse themselves, then when we are down to five members, and if a member had to recuse, then we had an issue with taking action. But it was more an issue with taking action and having a quorum in the last year. MATT REINHART: OK. For you, or Michael, the problem with filling positions, can the Council change that? Michael Mike absolutely, and we are not having a problem meeting quorum here, that was talking about the lands experience. MATT REINHART: Thank you, I get you. I am with you. I love asking the questions, just putting that information out there. If that was to be said, I think the church is to ask the question. If we keep things the same way, then we could change the criteria of individuals that we ask to be on that board. MICHAEL G DYER: The occupations are in the statute. Which is the challenge with the enforcement board, not just us but every local government has that issue. MATT REINHART: Don, the other attorney that got you was you. Thank you, we do learn from that. JEFFREY S BROWER: David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, I want to... Before this goes too far, because Don keeps making compelling arguments. I hope he does not come out soon that we all have to wear white wig soon. I want to withdraw my motion, Mr Chair, if appropriate by rules. MICHAEL G DYER: You had a second, Jay, you have an objection to that? DAVID SANTIAGO: Withdrawing the motion... JAKE JOHANSSON: And then what would we do? DAVID SANTIAGO: And then motion to table it, time uncertain. JAKE JOHANSSON: Why don't we just vote and be done with it? DAVID SANTIAGO: I think it is cleaner the other way. JAKE JOHANSSON: The idea here is to make a decision, not to kick the can. DAVID SANTIAGO: The decision either way is kick the can. I think tabling it, I'm uncertain his mother. JAKE JOHANSSON: I removed my second. JEFFREY S BROWER: As we voted down, it does not kick the can, it stays the same. DAVID SANTIAGO: Counsel chooses. JEFFREY S BROWER: We do have one member of the public that is set here for a long time. Chad, you have writing is beautiful is mine, Chad (Name). Is that right? SPEAKER: Lingenfelter, that is the way I make my N, looks like a R. Thank you, my name is Chad Lingenfelter, I live in District 3. I am here to refute the mischaracterization of the code enforcement board at last meeting, Jake said, and I quote: a special magistrate adds another layer of impartiality, not is tied to the elected officials as our appointed code enforcement people are, if we can even appoint them. I am the chairperson of the code enforcement Board, and I have never been contacted by any of the present council members, your predecessors, nor contacted any of you or your predecessors in my eight years on the board, except for one time when I contacted Doctor Lowry regarding a reappointment. Left message, never heard back. So I am not tied to the elected officials, as characterized, and each agenda has an item to disclose X partake communications, which members are to disclose conversations related to the case is on the agenda. Special magistrates not have to disclose those. Jake also said, "advisory boards are extensions of government, and very bureaucratically hard to manage." I contend the special magistrate is very easy to manage. You have actually discussed that your selves here. An elected official has only to call that one person, who may not even be a resident or businessperson in Volusia County, and suggest that special magistrate rule a particular way. As a former mayor of South Daytona, and their former special magistrate, who spent two and three years respectively in federal prison for accepting bribes to reduce code enforcement liens. I'm a member of the public evidenced by the treatment you have given me to speak, I serve at the pleasure of the County Counsel, to listen to my fellow residents, with the goal of achieving compliance by the respondent. Councilmember Santiago, stated "struggles that they are having people getting to participate in applying our code accordingly," when he moved to have an ordinance to have staff introduce a special magistrate. We have never not held a code enforcement Board due to lack of quorum, even through the pandemic, I recall only one that an action like Sabrina was describing, where we do not have enough members to have a quorum, because a person not recuse themselves because they were hired by that respondent to come towards compliance. Let's see... Lost my place. Leaving only three members that could take action, so we did not have quorum. In January, the County Counsel had eight applicants. Two of them incumbents, for two openings on the code enforcement Board, since November. We have a functioning code enforcement board consisting of residents within those disciplines, and present ordinance, the county's attorney office provides updates at the end of our meetings regarding the status of appeals of the board's actions. I assume you are doing a great job, because they were saying our decisions repelled in court. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you Chad, well done. SPEAKER: One more sentence? It is a thank you. Thank you for your time and afforded me the opportunity to serve with wonderful men and women on the code enforcement Board for the past seven years. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, what we have is to more people who want to speak. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you. I stated not this board… But, as the chairman of the code enforcement Board mentioned, nefarious behavior has occurred before in this county. In the city. And that is kind of what I was alluding to at the local level. But it happens all around the nation. And I am not saying this counsel, or this code enforcement board. But, the possibility is in any. He brings up a good point, I guess it could happen with a special magistrate as well. But… I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Michael Dyer. MICHAEL DYER: Briefly, just to avoid confusion. Anybody with there would be a special magistrate, where a citizen board (Indiscernible) ex parte contact with a quasijudicial (Indiscernible). That will not change fruitlessly, if you do keep the citizen board, any help you could have in getting an architect to apply would be greatly appreciated. JAKE JOHANSSON: Can I ask if aloe up conversation, for the county attorney… That is not justice, that is every out there, right? Anybody can find us an architect. Including the current code enforcement board. MICHAEL DYER: Yes, and we have contacted staff before to try to find… JEFFREY BROWER: David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: I do not know if my motion is in place, to table, time uncertain but is that in place? JEFFREY BROWER: No, the motion was to approve it for a special magistrate. DAVID SANTIAGO: We withdrew the motion already, and the second. JEFFREY BROWER: Really? I thought you did not want to. (Multiple speakers) DAVID SANTIAGO: Then I made the motion to table, time uncertain. JAKE JOHANSSON: Second, Johansson. JEFFREY BROWER: So, the same motion, David Santiago, second by Jake Johansson, to withdraw. Which keeps everything, to table it to a time uncertain, which keeps things where they are until it comes up again. If ever. Don Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: The chairman, who just spoke, I forgot your name sir, I apologize. Dave could not remember either, Chad. Could I ask you to come up really quick? JEFFREY BROWER: Do you need to swear him in? (Laughs) DON DEMPSEY: In your seven years, do you ever find yourself in a position that you wish you could root -- rule a different way, and found yourself bound by the County code? SPEAKER: Certainly. We have this discussion, we have an engineer… And so, after the presentation of the facts to both staff and the respondent, are there times where we have had an issue with, well… You are technically in violation of the code, so we have to find the respondent not in compliance, because you are technically in violation of the code. DON DEMPSEY: Do you think you would have in easier time recruiting board members if you guys had more power to maybe not apply the code in a certain fact situations to do justice? SPEAKER: No. I think there is this niche of code enforcement… I mean, I have… I have reconstituted the code compliance department at a city, so I just have this desire for it. And so, I think many of the members are… Are very active in it. So I do not think there is… I do not think you would add. I hear what you're saying. It would be great to have the ability to say, this ordinance does not make sense. But, I also like what… Mr. Dyer was saying. Just those observations, you learn what is not working. This ordinance… I will not speak of any ordinance, but this ordinance is tough to enforce. We need to look at how to improve upon it, that it is more predictable. And the residents and business owners know exactly what is expected. DON DEMPSEY: Are you able to… I have never heard any of these frustrations with the code enforcement board. Is there a way we could help you? SPEAKER: Find that architect. Well, we had vacancies… We had two persons that expired on November 18. So, we squeezed through Christmas, December and January, holding onto, I hope, the five show up, and definitely for show up. So, that was stressful for us, just because of reappointments, they were not made until January. Which became February. So, thank you for those appointments. We have a meeting tomorrow, I will be sitting there tomorrow. (Laughs) DON DEMPSEY: Thank you for what you do. SPEAKER: Thank you. Thank you for letting me serve. JEFFREY BROWER: Michael Dyer, just a couple quick questions for you. Is there any reason… Kerry sits on that board, right? Do you sit on the board as staff? You do not. Staff, you do? Sebrina is the attorney, is there any reason… MICHAEL DYER: Their own attorney Britt we represent staff. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. Is there any reason that if we observe what Don MC just said, there is a statute that they have to enforce, that they just think does not make any sense, that they can refer that to the attorney? Or somebody to refer it to the County Council to repeal it? CLAY ERVIN: That is part of our job as part of the growth and resource management apartment. Is that, if we have rules, regulations, goals, objectives, and policies in our comprehensive plan that we find are not able to be implanted or otherwise done in accordance with the policy directed by the County Council, it is our duty to bring it back to you. So that… JEFFREY BROWER: Have we done that? CLAY ERVIN: Yes sir, every time we come forward when we say, we request direction. That is what we are saying when we see a problem. MICHAEL DYER: The reason why I think it is structured that way, whether it is a citizen board or (Indiscernible) they are a judge. So, they are not going to say… I am against this ordinance or not, because you are the legislative body. You are the one elected, you establish the ordinances and the laws. So, your staff will come back if we have seen something that needs to be tweaked. Recommend amendments to the ordinance. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. Again… PAOLO SORIA: Mr. Chair, just want to put a point of context. A lot of the code violations, they show up as variance requests at your PLDRC. Someone gets cited for a code violation, the solution is, fix the code, demolish the structure. Or… Go to the PLDRC to seek a variance. That is where you get most of your code changes. Because the PLDRC looks at what is becoming -- coming before the Britt they tell me, and staff, this does not make sense. And that is how a code change comes before you. When we request a change in that particular manner. So, it touches your legislative board, your PLDRC, because of the amount of variances a particular code generates. If it is not being… If it is not working out too well. So there is that safety valve that happens when you see too many variances of the same type. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, thank you. TROY KENT: We no longer have a motion, correct? JEFFREY BROWER: We have a motion to chamber it -- table it until time uncertain. Michael, one more question for you. I asked you, can this counsel change the makeup of the board? I thought you said yes we could. Then I heard you say no we cannot. MICHAEL DYER: No, sorry if I understood -- misunderstand question. JEFFREY BROWER: Oh, so we have to find an architect. MICHAEL DYER: Yes, sorry. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. So we have a motion on the floor, I do not see anyone else that wants to speak, to table the motion for a time uncertain. By David Santiago, seconded by Jake Johansson. All in favor say 'aye'. Any opposed? OK… Chad, thank you for coming in. Item 9, appointments to the Affordable Housing Advisory Committee. SPEAKER: There are eight appointments in front of you. The nominations do have to be within a certain number of categories, that are listed in your agenda item. So if you do choose to appoint some buddy, please be sure to indicate which position you are appointing them to. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Mr. Chairman I would like to make a comment before we start. And, I think it is important, based on… On the amount of emails we got last night. And this morning. And… Something I try to figure out before I got here this evening, but I cannot. I received probably over 200 emails from people blowing into the faith organization. I know there are pillars of concern, and one of them is affordable housing. However… I do not know if any of the people incumbent, or otherwise, or from that organization. But it seems to me that they sometimes feel left out of some of the conversation. So, I want to make sure that somebody from the faith organization, at least in my… From my nomination, is at least allowed to apply. And I will appoint them to (unknown term) so, I will be withholding my nomination today, until I can figure out if any one of these people are in fact members of The Faith Organization. The same will be said for the human services advisory board when my appointment comes up. So… Before we start, I just wanted you all to know that I will not be picking anybody this evening. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, Matt Reinhart. MATT REINHART: Thank you, Chair. I had one in mind, but I want to make sure that that person is, what Mr Johansson said, is in fact part of The Faith Organization. Because I was also a recipient of all those emails. So I want to make sure that they are actively involved. So, I know the person, she is on this list, but I do want to verify. That was Ms. Odena (?). I want to find that out before I make my decision. She is, OK, that being said, I can make that one then. JEFFREY BROWER: I was going to make it, he was going to make it to… DAVID SANTIAGO: I think Troy was… JEFFREY BROWER: OK, you are nominating… MATT REINHART: Suzanne Odena… JEFFREY BROWER: (Away from microphone) DAVID SANTIAGO: I have one as well, Mr. Chair. Dwight Selby. A citizen who represents employers within the county. TROY KENT: Oh, come on… JEFFREY BROWER: You have to get your name in quicker. David Santiago nominates Dwight Selby. Troy, wasn't your name just up there? TROY KENT: It was, for Dwight Selby, who I served with, I was going to put him as an incumbent act on that board. But Mr Santiago between to it. I am looking for another choice. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. Well, I will nominate Mark Billings as a citizen who is actively engaged as a not-for-profit provider of affordable housing. Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Yes… I will nominate Waylon Nice is a citizen who resides within the unincorporated areas of the county. JEFFREY BROWER: Don Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: He took mine… Give me… (Laughs) JEFFREY BROWER: They come off when, the 31st? So we do not have one more meeting. But they will not have a meeting until after that. Probably… SPEAKER: I am not certain when their next meeting is. JEFFREY BROWER: We are not going to get all seven, it does not look labored anyone else have a nomination? Danny Robins? Don Dempsey? Jake Johansson? Jake Johansson is not going to do it tonight. DANNY ROBINS: Chair, I will hold off tonight. JEFFREY BROWER: Denny Robbins will hold off, will you hold off? JAKE JOHANSSON: Next meeting is April 7. JEFFREY BROWER: it takes you how long, we? SPEAKER: It can be done in a week. The good standing check, not back on check. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, sorry. So what we have right now is nominations for Dwight to Selby, Whalen niece, Susan oh Dena, and Mark Billings. All in favor say 'aye'. (Multiple speakers) JEFFREY BROWER: Any opposed? And those four are approved, 7-0. SPEAKER: Can you tell me who seconded it? JEFFREY BROWER: Part of me? Whose nominations they are? Dwight Selby was David Santiago. SPEAKER: And that was for a citizen representing employers within the county? I will go ahead and P repeat them. If I am incorrect, please just let me know. Mr Brower you appointed Mark Billings, for citizen who is actively engaged in a not-for-profit provider of affordable housing. Mr Reinhart, you nominated Suzanne Odena (?), a citizen who is actively engaged as a real estate professional in connection with affordable housing. Mr Kent nominated Waylon Niece (?), a citizen who resized within the unincorporated area of the county. David Santiago appointed Dwight Selby, a citizen who represents employers within the county. JAKE JOHANSSON: Whalen Niece (?), before, was a citizen represents essential services personnel, did that change? JEFFREY S BROWER: Looks like he is qualified into categories. SPEAKER: Multiple members are qualified to serve in more than one category. TROY KENT: However, if we think it would be easier to find someone in the unincorporated county instead of the essential services, I could change the wording on it and nominate him still is my choice, but under that... JAKE JOHANSSON: I don't think it matters, does it? TROY KENT: Just that we have to have one in these different areas, you may find someone in the unincorporated who is not in the essential service. SPEAKER: I would agree with you, Mr Kent, it would probably be easier to find someone... TROY KENT: Thank you for bringing that up, Mr Johansen. I will still keep Whalen Niece under the income into represents essential services personnel, for the affordable housing plan. JEFFREY S BROWER: Carissa, we have two people who volunteered that we cannot appoint because they do not qualify in any categories, is that true? Terry and Phyllis? SPEAKER: You would need six individuals from a category. So I believe the board is nine total. So those individuals could serve, they just would not be serving in a category, because you do need six categories, which so far you have four. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. And we need a total of nine... No other nominations... SPEAKER: The ninth member is Mr Johansen, see you need eight individuals. JAKE JOHANSSON: Just to verify, on the affordable housing advisory committee page 9-5, I am the County Council member. I was 23 for two years, so shouldn't I be current term expiration one of... Is it two years from my appointment date? I am looking at my appointment date, 1-5 and I expire in (indiscernible)... JEFFREY S BROWER: Don't say expire. JAKE JOHANSSON: A lot of people of expire today, according to us. SPEAKER: I am not certain, I would have to go back and review. JAKE JOHANSSON: Just make sure that is right, because we would have to make sure I am there for April 10. But we can also do that in the next meeting. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, you clear? OK. Last item, appointments to the contractor licensing and construction appeals Board. Item 10. Two-year terms for all seven members and at the end of this month. SPEAKER: Correct. And again, these individuals do need to serve from the designated categories. JEFFREY S BROWER: Matt Reinhart, before someone else takes your nomination. MATT REINHART: I nominate John Winnett for plumbing contractor. TROY KENT: James Jones, general contractor. JEFFREY S BROWER: James Jones for general... Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Mike Macdonald, incumbent, consumer rep. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, Mike Macdonald, I did not see his name. Consumer rep. And David Santiago... Mitchell Cole for mechanical. You have two plumbing contractors? And that's OK? OK. Don Dempsey... DON DEMPSEY: Michael (Name). Engineer. JEFFREY S BROWER: Michael Wajuniak who is consumer representative. I will nominate Caitlin Sutherland, as plumbing contractor. OK, and Jake is waiting until next... JAKE JOHANSSON: This one I will select, the remaining... SPEAKER: There are none. JEFFREY S BROWER: Nobody remaining. So we have six nominees. James Jones, general contractor, Michael Cole, mechanical contractor, Michael Wodniak, consumer rep, Michael Macdonald, consumer rep, John Minelt, plumbing contractor, Caitlin Sutherland, plumbing contractor. [Motion passes] And they are appointed 7 to 0. Any public participation? JEFFREY S BROWER: John Nicholson, would you like to go first? SPEAKER: John Nicholson, Daytona Beach side. First I would like to correct, I think I get the impression that the chamber open house was next week, it is the beginning of April. I think Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, beginning of April. I would encourage all of you to go. As support for both the economic engine, which is Daytona Beach, and the Halifax area. I think they need all the support they can get. Now here's a topic that you guys will not like. When I was up in North Carolina for my sister's birthday, topics came up, there were discussions, there have been discussions with friends I haven't Daytona Beach, the governor is pushing the elimination of DEI. To me, DEI is discrimination, exclusion and intimidation. Because it discriminates against white people. It discriminates against non-gay people, it discriminates against all kinds of people because they have an agenda. When I taught school, I got a BA in history, minor in philosophy, went to teach school and I was told I could not get a job because I was white. A federal judge determined that in the 70s we had moved enough Black teachers into the school system, they were putting in a quota, and I'm sure you guys realize that quotas are illegal. Over time, these things may sound familiar to you. Affirmative-action, set-asides, quotas, preferential hiring, and mirror of the community. Makeup of the city staff mirrors the community, makeup of the businesses mirror the community. All of these things and that discriminating against somebody for whatever reason. Our president, to me, was offensive when he said, "I will only nominate a Black person from a vice president." I will only nominate a black female for the Supreme Court. I will only nominate... Six times, it was only a black female. That to me is offensive! To all females! Let alone all people! So I am asking you to think about eliminating any wording in any documents that we have, in any boards or whatever, based on race. EOC drives me nuts whenever I see it at the bottom of the page. We do not discriminate, you see that at the bottom of the page, that is been 60 years ago! It is time we moved on. There are a lot of people out there that are over this racism. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Karen Clark, you came back. SPEAKER: Hello again, I cannot believe the patient you will have. Anyway, let me go back to here. I know that Jake was concerned about people speaking on public... Right now... And it would be nice to have something that has something you can make a judgment on. Is that how I interpreted it I hope? There is something that is coming down the pike, and I know I will be there on Thursdays meeting, where they want to put another huge development, for the train. For the sun rail area. Ty Harris (?) first came before the county, representing the area, for the buildings and everything. Where old New York Avenue, Glenwood Road, and grand Avenue all come together. I remember, and it was OK, they were going to have around the railroad station, to have houses similar to what we have in Queens New York, we have one, two, three stories, there is a community in the backyards, so when you drive down the street, you see the houses, and behind them back to back will be areas for a car to park, in the house garage. What is going to happen? Most families have two or three cars, whether you are by yourself, I have two trucks, my husband died, so I have two trucks. If I was living in an apartment, where would those trucks go? And when you have all these new... What is the word, Intermodal, where you are around the railroad station, making development. First, where's the water going to come, we all know that, but it is mostly the amount of people that is coming in there. Where are they going to park? The roads are not going to handle it, and the city of Deland, the water is so awful anyway, they have to be able to supply, let me see, 2000 new homes that are going in the next couple of years there. That the city of Deland has to somehow support... It is coming down the pike, so you are going to have people like me who when I have a whole lot more information will be bringing it to you. So that when you finally get it, it is not going to be just like what happened with that fuel mass that is up there in Ormond Beach. Where, I believe it was you Jeff, you said how have we not heard about this sooner? When they were changing the land use? You would not know about it, until it finally gets to you two and three years later, and then it is really too late to fight! And I understand, because I was sick, this place was packed to the hilt. Downstairs, outside and everywhere else. And it still went through. Somehow. You need to know these things before it gets to you. I do not know any other time for people like myself bring it for. That is it. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. County Manager. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: Yes sir… Call items… First off… Our veterans services division is hosting a veteran standdown event at the fairgrounds, April 19. A Friday, and Saturday the 20th. From nine-3 PM. They will be out there at the Hester building on our fairgrounds. We want to invite all the veterans out there. They will have services that will include VA benefit information, career resources, education resources, clothing giveaways, healthcare information… Homeless veteran resources, free food distribution by farm share. Free lunch provided by Bowl and Bore Barbecue and Supply, and free haircuts. That will be a nice event out there for our veterans. And now, Suzanne has got something else to inform you guys out. SPEAKER: Council Member's, there is good news at the state level, in that the legislature has dedicated significant additional money to trail development in the state of Florida. As part of that effort, however, the Florida greenways and trails counsel has been charged with re-ranking the regional trail corridors to determine how to allocate money. Now, what they have been directed not to do, is amend any of the current five-year work program. Which includes currently, almost $73 million of trail development in Volusia County. To complete gaps in our river to see loop. We are… Wanting simply to bring to the attention of the Florida greenways and trails counsel the importance of the existing funding for Volusia County, and reiterate and reemphasize the fact that those programs should be kept intact. We have, understanding they are meeting they are meeting at the end of this month. I think we are at the staff level, going to send a letter, under Mr. George Recktenwald advocating Volusia County's work program. If you see it go out with George's signature, I wanted you to be aware of it. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you, Suzanne. County attorney, Michael Dyer. MICHAEL DYER: Yes, just briefly. Late yesterday I sent you a first version of a legislative summary of bills that passed the legislature. Most bills have not been acted on by the governor at this time. So, what we will do is, we will send you some updates on this. We send this to staff as well, so everyone knows what is happening. Try not to overlook a bill. Because so much happens, particularly at the end of session, it is hard to track everything. Jake had mentioned to me he had read the full report, and is prepared to speak to it. But… (Laughter) MICHAEL DYER: One of the bills that is listed in there, Bill 770… You know, we are not used to getting good news, necessarily out of the legislative session. But that does help us tremendously. In the position you supported on the pace programs. If the governor signs it… Basically the legislature came down and agreed, I think, with our preferred position, that a pace provider would need approval of this counsel or a city committal -- city commission. Probably there will be a dispute over the liens they have entertained. Up to the lawsuit –, sorry, up to the bill taking effect. But that is a big shot in the arm litigation. I think it supports the position of this counsel, and some other jurisdiction. We will keep you updated. As to the legislation, if you have any questions, please let us know. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. That brings us to come to counsel, and today's rotation starts with David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, Mr. Chair I was going to try to reenact Troy completely, but I will just do the hand gestures because I cannot replicate your voice. (Laughter) DAVID SANTIAGO: He starts this way with his complementary, you know what I mean, I said it twice today, but it just hit me again. Staff, I am happy with you guys. I just want to voice it again pretty you guys do a good job for us, and represent us well. You take direction, and you do what we tell you, and you take direction when we say we do not want you to do that anymore. I know it takes a lot to do that. You all do it very professionally, and I wanted to complement all of your team. Thank you for that. The only other item I had was for my colleagues… I was thinking about our last meeting. When we talked about some developments things. We did some direction with storm water. There was a lot of topic about infill, I think we talked about. I know we have our workshop coming up on April 30 to talk about some of these topics. I wanted to see if there is consensus to get staff to also include the topic of infill. We talked about that, because it was a budget item that specifically said it only to affordable housing, and we had dialogue saying no, we should open it up to anybody, affordable or not… So we kind of make the rules similar for everyone. So, I think there is good reason for infill. To get people closer to their jobs, to infrastructure… And prevents… We will make the argument later on. I see headshaking, I just want to see if there is consensus for staff to show us, what are these nonconforming lots, that may be buildable, to create more infill in hopes to… Not to promote sprawl, a guess if you want to call it. The opposite. If there is consensus, if staff can bring us, and shows the areas that this could potentially work, and have the least impact. Mr. Chair? I will make that a motion. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, we have a motion for staff to bring back a map that shows where these… Inconsistent lots, lots that do not… DAVID SANTIAGO: Non-conforming. JEFFREY BROWER: Non-conforming, so we can see where they are… DAVID SANTIAGO: Mr. Chair, I apologize for interrupting. I want to make sure my motion is clear. To come back with recommendations for us to consider during that workshop, of what we can do to promote infill in those areas. Versus outfield, I guess the opposite. JEFFREY BROWER: Infill, map, and recommendations read how do we get there. DAVID SANTIAGO: You got the motion, Clay? JEFFREY BROWER: Danny Robins seconded. Any comments, questions? All in favor say 'aye'. (Multiple speakers) JEFFREY BROWER: Any opposed? The motion passes. DAVID SANTIAGO: Don, you have been batting 1000. I just want to stop you before the day comes where we all have to wear white wigs. JEFFREY BROWER: Don Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: (Away from microphone) well, now I will talk… JEFFREY BROWER: You could at least give us your best to 32nd comedy routine. DON DEMPSEY: I will double down what I said before, I'm not a big fan of Sun Rail. Never happen, probably would never will. But I really want to thank George for trying to do what he could for the county, with what he had to work with. I do not want anything that I have ever said, either at these agenda meetings or in public to ever be interpreted that I fault you guys you guys have done a wonderful job with what you could. I just wanted to double down on that until you, thank you.. That is all I have. JEFFREY BROWER: J Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: No comment. JEFFREY BROWER: Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you, my list here… It is just a couple of items. Really it is just a couple of items. Counsel, and Volusia County… I had a great experience Friday night. I did a ride along with the Sheriff's department in District 4. I rode with chief Deputy Brian Henderson. It was a busy Friday night. Things were hopping. And those men and ladies were… Safe. And hard-working. And smart. And dedicated. And it was a positive experience. I agree with what I have heard, as far as the meeting today. I think that we did take some steps to keep us efficient and effective. I just cautioned the Council with one item. And that is when we do not follow the rules that we have established. And tonight we had an instance where, and I am a fan of the resident, I believe she left now. But… She got up to talk on an item that was on the printed agenda. Not at the correct time. And… I am pleased she was able to make it to the end of the meeting. But when we start doing that, we opened the door for more of that to happen. I just caution us. And the last thing I want to talk about is the Ocean Center. Katt Williams, Arena Cross, Harlem Globetrotters, bull riding, and Bert Kreischer (?) I called it motocross, but it was arena Cross, I try to fix it this time. Way to go, to this counsel, for making this positive policy change. And… Mad props to Lynn Flinders. The director of the Ocean Center, for listening to this counsel, and getting the job done. Do not stop. Have a nice evening. JEFFREY BROWER: Matt Reinhart. MATT REINHART: Thank you, Shepherd we had a little fun earlier, trying to mimic each other, and Troy's thing there. I came up, Danny is this… But by far my favorite was… I just want to say… (Laughter) MATT REINHART: Which is Don Dempsey. TROY KENT: Can we get him a headset? MATT REINHART: Can we get him a headset really. We talked about some non-jail issues… It got put back, I am really sorry guys. I had to answer 350 emails. So… (Laughs) I could not do it. I really did, I had to answer those. But I did get the opportunity to discuss with them. Full disclosure, we were out of town. Regardless of what was said. We have been experiencing some issues with my daughter, thank you guys for your patients, last time. She is doing better. Back to work, but… I do not think… I tried to explain that to them but it is nobody's business. So… But I will make sure I talk about jail stuff next time, OK? Before I go, really quick, April 11, Barbara and Heekin from the (Indiscernible) Chamber of Commerce made mention of it today, Mr Robbins, myself, along with other individuals on the panel for the opioid in the workplace discussion. I would encourage anybody that wants to to attend. We will attack some good issues. The keynote speaker being the sheriff. Obviously he is familiar with this issue. I know Danny has a long law-enforcement career, I have on the jail side of things. Hopefully we can bring some awareness more to this. I am looking forward to the discussion. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you Chairman, man of my word. Counsel, I will make a motion, the chairman had hit on something I am in support of as well. If we can just get a cost and maybe feasibility implementation of body cameras for code enforcement. Just to see what we are looking at. We will go from there. It should not be that involved. Anybody that can redtape a job, give a summons, has authority to enter or remain on a property… SPEAKER: Mr Robbins, they are not law enforcement, we -- they need to ask for exclusive consent be recorded. I do not know if that comes into your motion. Just want to put that out there. DANNY ROBINS: There are other places, Deltona may be… SPEAKER: Daytona Beach does, that is all I want to mention, they have the policy. DANNY ROBINS: Maybe we could look at that, see what works. I just want to dip our foot in the pool, guys, and we will just go from there. JEFFREY BROWER: Yes, you would have to bring back all of that, legalities, and beside the camera and commit, there is storage requirements. By law. So… DANNY ROBINS: It has a price tag. JEFFREY BROWER: Then the Council could consider that. I thought you just made a motion. We have a motion for the Council for staff to bring back the possibility of using body cam for code enforcement. Officers, seconded by Matt Reinhart. All in favor say 'aye'. (Multiple speakers) JEFFREY BROWER: Any opposed? Thank you. DANNY ROBINS: Papa's restaurant in new Smyrna, it caught fire over the weekend… It is such an iconic place. So, I hope they get that… Backup in going. Other than that… The fishing is good at the jetty, for all of our fishermen out there. So, yeah… Lot of stuff to do. We live in a tremendous place. Thank you for sting me tonight. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Danny eliminated one of my topics. Thank you for that. I have one more, first, pastor, you opened us with prayer, and you are still here. I just wanted to thank you for coming and sitting through this meeting. And witnessing firsthand what the County Council does. We can always use your prayer, as did the citizens of Volusia County. Just one other thing that I wanted to... Rather than added to the agenda, I don't want to do that to the board, wanting to be able to think about it and consider it. Mike or George, our workshop for looking at zoning, that Troy had asked for, is that scheduled for April 30? Is that correct? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: I think that is correct. 3:00. JEFFREY S BROWER: You are able to make that? Good. I would like this to be considered... I think it probably would be, but just to make sure... Concerning the Volusia County industrial zoning category I-2. It came to my attention this week that some citizens met with staff about this. I really appreciate that. Whatever staff members met and gave them... Heard them out and gave them good information. They are probably all from the Ormond Beach area. The I-2 zoning category lists a number specifically defined permitted principal uses and structures. And then it also lists any industrial, not defined, any industrial use or structure provided it meets the minimum environmental standards in section 72 – 288 and is not a permitted special exception. In my opinion, that is an ill-defined catchall phrase for a very important zoning category, I-2. So I would like to have the Council at that meeting, consider that instead of having a wide open catchall language, that any applicant may be able to use to describe the proposal, proposed user structure that is not been specifically listed as permitted use by right. If that phrase is to be used at all, it should only be used as a special exception. And that will relieve the problem of none of us knowing something like a chlorine gas company coming to a residential neighborhood, whatever it is. And then we are accused of not paying attention and not knowing about it. If it is a special exception, it could come back to the Council, and I know we will be discussing special exceptions. The staff make it, does counsel make it, that is all I am asking. That we discuss it, put it out on the table for the public. A special exception would require a careful review. For the use or structure, so it can be denied if not appropriate for its proposed location, or where additional safeguards and conditions can be placed in its approval, to get it approved, to ensure protection to the county as a whole. And to our neighboring communities. What I would suggest... The county should amend the land development regulations, just to move the catchall phrasing from I-2 zoning permitted use to special exception, the word permitted should be removed to just a special exception. Would that have come up for discussion? SPEAKER: Yes. JEFFREY S BROWER: You already instructed us to do that, when we actually came up with the workshop idea. So that discussion will occur. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: George, I think it was more a holistic approach? All of the categories? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: The Chair just got specific, do not just lose those notes, the workshop will be much broader, but certainly the I-2 zoning was under the impetus is to having that workshop. DAVID SANTIAGO: I don't mind having a discussion, I think there's discussion to be had about other categories. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: Almost every meeting there has been a category... Almost every meeting you have added a little something, so it will be a pretty robust workshop. DAVID SANTIAGO: Mr Chair, since you brought up the topic, I want to encourage staff, because we can talk a lot sometimes, if you guys can try to make an agenda that you can try to keep us to. I know we control our time, and we will probably have to be self disciplined, so we can get through it. Because I can see a lot of dialogue happening there, and it could be a midnight meeting. JEFFREY S BROWER: And probably a lot of public. DAVID SANTIAGO: Possibly. Workshops are typically just counsel discussion. JEFFREY S BROWER: Public can come to workshops... Don't they have to have public discussion? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: If it is advertised as a workshop, where there will be no final vote taken, then no. We can advertise it as a special meeting, that way they can make a decision, but you called it a workshop. JAKE JOHANSSON: For a reason. DAVID SANTIAGO: I prefer the workshop to have open dialogue amongst all of us. MICHAEL DYER: To be clear about what that will mean, you will not be taking any bows to give direction to staff at that. The great benefit is for you to have a discussion. For decision at a later date. DAVID SANTIAGO: But it is decision to go work on this and bring it back. Direction, right? TROY KENT: No, at a workshop, correct me if I'm wrong, we cannot take a vote, but we can certainly give you direction. MICHAEL G DYER: I am just saying, you are not giving final direction on anything at a workshop. TROY KENT: We are not taking a final vote, there is no vote taking place, but we can certainly give you direction. Marching orders are what the expectation is from this counsel. MICHAEL G DYER: I agree. TROY KENT: OK, alright. JEFFREY S BROWER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: I agree with David and everybody else on the workshop. I want to, if we can, make an itinerary, like David, maybe put everything down in a box, 30 minutes for this etc. so we can keep things moving. My main focus is moving forward and progressing and not moving backwards or rehashing stuff that we already addressed in our meeting. Thank you. DAVID SANTIAGO: I learned today that Don loves apples. Take several bites... JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. I've got... Danny, you were done? David Santiago, you were done? OK, then this meeting is adjourned, 39 minutes late, at 7:39 PM. [End of session]