VOLUSIA COUNTY COUNCIL MEETING: APRIL 2, 2024 SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council Meeting. The meeting will begin in 10 minutes. Welcome to the Volusia County Council Meeting. The meeting will begin in five minutes. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, we will give everyone a 60 second warning to find their seats please. OK, we will call the April 2, 2024 Volusia County Council Meeting to order at 9 AM. And just to let you know how we start, we will begin with an invocation. Any faith group in Volusia County is welcome to participate in this. If your faith group would like to, we do appreciate it. Send an email to kgreeen@volusia.org. This is Karissa Green to my left and she will get you all set up and what needs to be done. This morning we have Pastor Brad Gwartney from Stetson Baptist Church will be leading us in the invocation. Then we will go right into the Pledge of Allegiance. So if you would like to stand, please join me. PASTOR BRAD GWARTNEY: County Council, thank you for the opportunity, my name is Brad, with Stetson Baptist Church into land. It's time to pray. This day event just after Easter, so if you will pray with me. Father God, we thank you so much for the work that is to be done today. We pause for a moment to give you thanks. The Bible refers to you as the great healer, when so many around us are suffering and need comfort. It also causes a great provider. I pray for those who have needs, and to be honest we all have needs. Help us find a solution to those needs. Mr Chair refers to you as a wonderful counselor. God I pray for insight today as decisions are to be made. Give us all wisdom and patience to make good decisions. Finally got I thank you for Volusia County, I thank you for my city of Deland, and I thank you that you are for those places. God, thank you that you are for each of us, every we will be drawn closer to you. God, what will happen today in this room is important. I pray for courage to make ethical decisions, and pray for patience and grace when hard decisions are to be made. Lord, heal our land and draw us into an ever deepening relationship with you. Father God, we love you, in your name we pray. Amen. "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." JEFFREY BROWER: Would you call the role please? KARISSA GREEN: Mr Dempsey. Mr Johansson. Mr. Kent. Mr. Reinhart. Mr Robins. Mr Santiago. Mr. Brower. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you, we will start our meeting with public participation. When I call your name, just come up to the podium here. The podium goes up and down so that the microphone can be right at your mouth. You want to be able to hear you and want the public that is listening online and being recorded be able to hear you. So please make sure the microphone is right at your face. Just tell us where you are from, what part of the county so your representative up here is aware of that. You will have three minutes. MICHAEL G DYER: Mr Chair, I'm sorry to interrupt. I noticed some devices in the front here. I don't know what those are. JEFFREY BROWER: I don't know what they are either. MICHEAL G DYER: The meetings are recorded and broadcast, I don't think that's necessary. It's up to counsel but I have never seen that used. JEFFREY BROWER: Do you recommend they be removed? MICHAEL DYER: I do. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. Who can do that? Thank you. That was interesting. OK. Paul Richardson, you are very... You are used to doing this will lead the way for everybody full stop Paul Richardson. PAUL RICHARDSON: Good morning Council, minus Paul Richardson of DeLand. You gentlemen have heard me for some time talk about how the COVID-19 virus may have likely been created in a Wuhan lab, Wuhan Institute of (Unknown Term) full well it seems like I have been right. Quote. COVID-19 may have been created in a Chinese lab, a Professor (Indiscernible) UN March 28 with another expert claiming that the evidence has reached the level of a smoking gun. Richard A (unknown name), a micro biologist at Rutgers University was quoted saying in a new Wall Street Journal article that the virus that killed millions around the world may have actually been man-made in China's Wuhan. He said evidence found in a 2018 document from the lab that talks about making such a virus. The papers from the lab cited by Rutgers drafts and notes regarding grant proposal call (Unknown Term) which sought to test engineering batch coronavirus is that would make them easily transmittable to humans.", I have sent this article to all of your email addresses, if you want to read further. I am not saying the COVID 19 virus was released intentionally, however I am reviewing my strong (Indiscernible) research and hold China accountable for creating this virus. I further call on the port legislature (Indiscernible) support (Indiscernible) research as well. This is the result of (Indiscernible) God anymore science and is clearly acceptable. Situs and medical professionals still say this was not from the lab, have no credible (Indiscernible) and those who defend the research should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. If they continue to (Indiscernible) ally they should be stripped of their credentials. Now on a more personal note, due to scheduling conflicts for both the library report and Cultural Council board, I'm going to have to tender my resignation from the Library Council at this time. I do apologize, I really was hoping I could avoid this but both councils, both boards are unable to change their schedules at this time. This is it because I think the library or that the cultural board is more important that the library, I hope it still continues. And hopefully maybe at a later time with scheduling permits, I could reapply for that position if possible. Again I do apologize for all you Council member's, I appreciate your opportunity but I do feel that the Cultural Council has a grant that's – it's not that it's more important, just another want to put that (Indiscernible). Thank you, I appreciate it and God bless Volusia County, America and Israel. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you for your service. Jackleen Clark. SPEAKER: My name is Jackie Clark and I live in Port Orange, two houses down from the proposed access road to the new motocross Park off of Tomoka Farms Road. On February 20th, direction was given to get feedback from the community. Since I have not been contacted yet I thought I was going to be here today anyway so I would just give you a couple thoughts. I actually love the idea. I think it's a perfect fit for that area. It's very rural, a lot of kids on three wheelers, but there's also – there are two, 35 acre lots for of horses. People who have lived there for 50 years. I'm not going to speak for my neighbors but I think it's going to be a very hard sell. They are also really mad right now at Volusia County because of the whole stormwater stuff. So a few of the things I thought I would bring up as we are completely saturated, our soil is totally saturated. If you walk out to my pasture it feels like you're walking on a marshmallow. And probably that area is too. Not only is there a house 1500 feet away from the track, but my neighbor's driveway runs parallel to the access road. And it is just feet away from the road. I have a hard time believing anyone went out there to look at it, because you look at it and you would just know it does not work. I hope you will save the staff's time and look for a better location. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Dana McCool. SPEAKER: Good morning Mr Chair and councilmembers. I think we are all friends here so I would like to invite you on September 27th we will be doing the second annual Wig out for Cancer charity event. If you were not able to attend last year, it was wildly successful. This charity is dedicated to local Volusia centric cancer charities. These are small grassroots cancer charities that God provide meals, wigs, food, rods, medication, appointments. I could go on and on but we choose local charities, the smaller ones. Anyone is encouraged to apply to be the recipient. Last year was popular. We are also launching on that evening the wildly popular guns and hoses calendar. The call is going out today officially for all Volusia County law enforcement and firefighters to go to Volusia guns and hoses.org, and put an application to be on the calendar for 2025. The sales from that calendar goes partially to the law enforcement agency. We give a portion of it to their charity, and the firefighters as well. It was well received by all the departments. Right now we are going out, we are doing our packaging now. In May, we will go out to everyone of her cities. You will be getting a visit for myself or someone from my committee. I don't know, maybe the widely popular the Sherry Simmons there, she is part of our committee this year. I encourage if you can't you go out and please save that date. This year, Wig out for Cancer will be held in the Deltona center, 7 to 11 PM. This year's theme is A Midsummer's Night. We will have food, live auctions. We had great success last year and want all of Volusia to be involved. We have now committee members on all of the sides of the county here. We want it to be Volusia centric. So asking you to save the date for that. Thank you very much, I appreciate your time. If I do not see you there you can send a check in lieu, we will be in touch about that also. This is just kind of save the date. Thank you offer sitting up there who supported us last year. Mr Santiago, I know you were there, I know we also had donations from other people. I'm going to be up here every month gently reminding you to participate this year. We want to see our community involved. This money went back to childhood cancer foundation, also went back toMission blue, local cancer charity. So stay local, spend your money local and let's support local cancer charities. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. John Nicholson. JOHN NICHOLSON: That was quick. John Nicholson Daytona Beach side. A couple things, wanted to speak on the library. After COVID, well prior to COVID it was inhabited by a lot of homeless people. There was an incident and people stopped going to the library on Beachside. It's now totally safe, and they are adding things everyday. The launchpad I find fantastic. If you are digitally inclined, if you can do computers and that new little system they have for you put a goggle on and see all around the world. I just want to put a plug for the library and the beachside. Secondly, a better solution to the motocross location. I mentioned to... The idea is that that location is relatively close. The block is really close if you live anywhere. You can hear the noise, you have the traffic, because it's a very narrow road, going in front of your house. I think a better location would be the north side of the... I don't want to use the word dump, landfill. They don't like the word dump. The north side of the landfill is a wetlands. It's never going to be used. To me, it has an access road, it has nobody within I guess 1/4 of a mile. So maybe five, 10 city blocks in either direction. I think if you were going to do it, it's an ideal location. It is absolutely necessary. It adds not only to Daytona Beach which I happen to like, but Port Orange, Holly Hill and all the surrounding areas will benefit from it. We need to get the correct location where it can grow, and hope we have it as the largest facility of its kind in the United States eventually. So that is the kind of thing we need, and that's the kind of thing we have to have. And we just have to put in the correct location. And lastly, driving over here there was a comment made on retirement. We have been hitting this forever it seems. I know Ronald Reagan wanted to do something about it and it has been a couple years since he has been president. They wanted to up the age. While we are fixing that, and we can do that in our city as well and our county as well. We don't have to have – I know I got (Indiscernible) in Daytona Beach for the police retire at 20. So they become policeman at 18, 20, they retire at 40, they get a second job. They retire, get a third job. So they have four incomes. We have to look at that, thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. I'm going to kill this name, is it John or [Name]? KARISSA GREEN: I believe it's Joseph. JEFFREY BROWER: What's the last name? (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: I am here once again about code enforcement. Code enforcement has been after me forever. Three years ago, when this started, I put in 300 same, exact violations that I had on my house and they did absolutely zero to any of those violations. When I talked to the code enforcement mean guy, he says, "Oh, did you want me to look into those?" So, it was infutility that I can't get nobody. If you see the pictures appear, I turned that one in 30 days ago. As of today, there is nothing done for it. It says open case. That is what they did on all the other cases and they are not doing anything. Through the Freedom of Information, I got that, all the printed paperwork that he has done which is absolutely nothing. If you're going to make me abide by these ridiculous laws, then you have to make everybody in this county abide by the laws. Not just who you feel like wanting to, or you your neighbor is, we are not going to touch him or the neighbor down here, we are not going to touch him. That is wrong. A law is a law. This is America. If you don't think this is in violation, I don't know what you people want, I really don't. You don't even play fair. I have tried to talk to my district councilman and he won't even answer me. What's wrong with this country? I don't know what you expect me to do. I have to have a architectural drawing on a $300 building that I want to sit out with the screen around it. That is absolutely ridiculous. You can't build a $300 structure to sit on on your own property without an architectural stamp? I went over into Orange City and found 37 same size buildings as mine. And you will be getting all of theirs, and once we opened this can of worms, I'm not going away. I want to let you know that you do not have the right to do this. There are the pictures to prove it. (Bell rings) SPEAKER: He has done nothing on the property for 30 days. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. OK. That brings us to item 1, but before I start, I believe we have a request for motion. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Council I want to ask if we can schedule a hard stop at 12:50 for lunch today, I have a 1 o'clock that cannot be changed. If we can do lunch at 12:50, I would appreciate that. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. TROY KENT: You need a second for that? I am happy to second that. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any comment? All in favor say aye, any opposed? Hard stop at 12:50, so if you're talking at 12:50, we will give you a little grace. The second was by Troy Kent. OK, now that exist item 1, the consent agenda. Does any councilmember have an item they would like to pull for a vote or for discussion? TROY KENT: I make a motion to approve the consent agenda as presented. JAKE JOHANSSON: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve by Troy Kent, second by Jake Johansson. Since there is no discussion I will call to approve the consent agenda, any opposed? Passed 7 to 0. Those of you that is not your first time you realize I am trying my new voice this morning. I hope you enjoy it. TROY KENT: Kudos to Mr Recktenwald, six meetings in a row. It wasn't like this. It was problematic, there was things on the content that should not have been on the consent and George has listened to what we said, and we are running more efficiently, thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. Item 2, which may be why most of you are here this morning. The 2024 ECHO Grant Award Recommendations. We will hear from Dr. Burbaugh first, and if there is no issues with the rest of the council, I would like to take each of the items one by one because they are all different and they should all get their own consideration and vote. Brad Burbaugh. BRAD BURBAUGH: Good morning, council members. I have included this PowerPoint as part of the update on Friday, but before we get started, I just want to share with each of you that my team heard you loud and clear last year when you give us feedback on the process, so, one, we have added a more rigorous evaluation of the construction timeline and cost estimates, by engaging our construction and engineering team by projects that we find this positive question will and is added as a new heading in our technical review. With regard to holding applicants responsible for timeline, we have renewed emphasis on this on the mandatory workshop we have shared the video of your discussion about extensions with each of the folks, so that they know the expectation of the staff and I want to share. We have nine grant proposals for your consideration. The recommended funding for seven of them is 2.6 million which is the request. There is one project that is not recommended for funding and I will go over that if you would like. There is one, the exceptional grant that is before you today, requires council direction. The total funding request is 5.3 million. Of the nine applications we have three nonprofits, and $10 million in match that would be leveraged with council's investment. As you can see these are the nine applicants. We have seven outdoor, one historic and one environmental project. Leave it to the pleasure of the Council, would you like me to go through each project quickly? Or move directly to questions. JEFFREY S BROWER: If we have questions at this point but for me we will see what the rest of the council wants. If you're going take each one by one, when you get to each one, we will hear your feedback, and we are members of the public that would like to speak to various projects. BRAD BURBAUGH: OK. The first one on the list is the historic Seville school restoration. This is a historic project requesting 214,000 in ECHO dollars, and they are bringing into the table 218,000 in cash match. Restoration and preservation of the historic school. Some comments on the advisory committee, the grant is well done and clear to understand. The historic school needs to remain open and be supportive. They know what they are doing. Those are comments selected from – I have selected three comments from advisory committee notes that I will share with you on each project. TROY KENT: Question, should have put my name up, sorry, Chairman. JEFFREY S BROWER: That is OK. Brad, when you do each one, let's stop and ask questions. TROY KENT: Dr. Burbach was his application complete, did they follow the rules? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: any other questions? Is there a motion for the Seville? MATT REINHART: Motion to approve? TROY KENT: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: The motion to approve? Matt, you are throwing your voice. Motion by Matt, second by Troy. Seville is passed unanimously, 7 to 0. BRAD BURBAUGH: The second is Orman beach softball complex insulation of LED lighting and will install installation of LED lighting in this softball card. 460,000 which is matched with 456,000 in cash match. The comments from the advisory well organized, good feasibility study, as well as run project. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any questions? TROY KENT: Was the allocation complete? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. TROY KENT: Were they missing anything? Do they have a plan to be successful? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Great job. I'm happy to make a motion to approve the Ormond Beach softball complex installation of LED lighting. JAKE JOHANSSON: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve by Troy Kent, second by Jake Johansson. Any questions or debate? All in favor, see eye, any opposed? That is passed unanimously, 7 to 0. BRAD BURBAUGH: The third project is Ormond Beach project Nova Community Park fields two through five improvements. There is precedent for improving fields and it has been funded in the passed by ECHO because it is an improvement. that language is in the ballot language. They are asking again, for $216,000 with a total match, and essentially this will convert two fields to baseball fields and improve fields three, four and five. Comments from the advisory committee are the new smart irrigation technology upgrade will save water, which we like when we are looking at the environmental benefits of ECHO project and the sociable ready. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, Vice Chair Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Was the application complete? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Is there a plan for success? Did I read in this also that Ormond Beach is now putting a dedicated millage so they have money readily available, so that when they apply for ECHO grant they are ready to go? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. TROY KENT: Great job Ormond Beach and make sure you tell them I said that. I make a motion to approve Nova community field improvements. JAKE JOHANSSON: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve by Troy Kent, second by Jake Johansson. I like the irrigation technology that forward thinking and I think that such a good standard. Any other questions on the city of Ormond Beach Nova Community Park? All in favor say aye, any opposed, motion carried 7 to 0. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: City of Port Orange City center playground improvements. This project will improve program by installing ADA accessible equipment. In terms of playground, if you have not been to the Airport Road playground that we funded previously with them, Port Orange knows how to do playgrounds, so we are excited to support this project. Some comments is from the Advisory Committee. It fills a definite need in the community. They will use eco-friendly turf and materials and a good maintenance plan with details. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Vice-Chair Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you Chairman. Is the application complete? Are we missing any information? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Full disclosure, the city did ask for – to Fundy Pavilion as part of the project but it was missing the construction documents or street ready RFP for design build. So the city at their discretion pulled that portion of the project out to make it successful going forward. TROY KENT: That was very wise of Port Orange because they had the missing information and decided, you know what? We imagine we have this. I appreciate Port Orange did that. Do they have a plan to be success for moving forward? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Want to publicly thank Port Orange for making this part ADA compliant. Remind me of the Limitless PLayground on and Ormond Beach that received ECHO fund years ago, at our airport, it's fantastic to see kids of all ages despite any disabilities they have being able to participate, having fun with their peers. JEFFREY BROWER: Did you make a motion? TROY KENT: I didn't, because I saw Mr Johansson and that is stomping grounds. JAKE JOHANSSON: I stomp all over the place Troy. Do you know if the City of Port Orange will fund the pavilion on their own? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I do not. Yes, the grant consultant is shaking her head yes. JAKE JOHANSSON: So the pavilion will still be built, thanks, that's all I had. JEFFREY BROWER: Is there a motion to approve? JAKE JOHANSSON: Motion to approve, Johansson. TROY KENT: Second. JEFFREY BROWER: Motion to approve by Jake Johansson, second by Vice-Chair Kent. Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, just a quick question. Are we having any public... Excuse me. Public participation on each item before we felt? JEFFREY BROWER: We have participation for all of Deberry for New Smyrna. We did have participation... We have already taken that up at approval. But if you would like to speak, you can take your time. Rob Salazar. Do you still wish to speak? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: He is with new Smyrna. JEFFREY BROWER: All of these are for new Smyrna. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: About the two we would have public comment for the end. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you, I will call when we get there. JAKE JOHANSSON: Do we need to vote on Port Orange? KARISSA GREEN: No. JEFFREY BROWER: We did not vote on Port Orange. All in favor say Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries 7-0. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Next on the list application from city of Edgewater. Asking for maximum request for standard rent which is $600,000, they are bringing telemental $704,000 to match County funds. This will construct the first ever pickleball courts in Edgewater. And will include forced intercourse with amenities including parking lot, stormwater management and landscaping, and ADA sidewalk for people to walk on around the facility. Some of the comments are under Advisory Committee, this is a shovel ready project. Great application, first pickleball courts in Edgewater. Very informative about the sport of pickleball, the allocation was. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Robins? DANNY ROBINS: Motion to approve. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Danny Robins make a motion to approve, second was by Councilman Matt Reinhart. Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you chairman. Doctor Burbaugh operational blade? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Were we missing anything? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Plan for success? Where is Edgewater? Are you trying to compete with Holly Hill? I absolutely love it. I love you are bringing pickleball courts down to the southern part of Volusia County. I have yet to do it but you have heard Ms. Iqbal use my comments earlier. Pickleball is becoming wildly popular and I am sure one day I will jump on. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Was a they did a great job with announcements of going to the big ball court, nearly half are over half of those members are from Edgewater. They demonstrated the need well. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Next. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: The final project... JEFFREY BROWER: Didn't felt on pickleball? No we did not. A motion was by Danny Robins, second by Reinhart. All in favor say Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries 7-0 two approve. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Next to start on a YMCA athletic fields and playground application by Volusia Flagler YMCA. The request is $428,000 which will be leveraged with $428,000, a portion of which is landmass. About 320,000 in cash is what they bring to the table to leverage our funds. It will construct new ADA accessible playground and improve the adjoining soccer fields. Some comments selected from your Advisory Committee. This would be the first artificial turf soccer field in the area. Good project, they were attentive to detail. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Vice Chair Troy Kent. TROY KENT: With the application could lead? Were they missing anything? Do they have a plan for success? Now have another question, how is the public going to access this free of charge? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: The YMCA as a motorway policy when it comes to this project. They have shared that. Their members will get first dibs, for lack of a better term. Let me back up and say... About 35 of our products are fee-based, they are generating fees through memberships or other means to sustain the project in the long term. There is a precedent for this, and the Y has received money from us in the past. There is a process and understanding the public should be able to access this without paying a membership fee. TROY KENT: I appreciate that, thank you for sharing that. And I have supported in a big way the project in Ormond Beach with the YMCA. I'm a fan, I'm an advocate, but I need to be sold that were giving public ECHO dollars for a project here, that any of the public can access this property whenever they want. I'm a little hesitant when I heard their members that I think pay $79 a month if my memory is correct, that they are going to get first dibs. Because I'm concerned about the taxpayer that is not a member there, yet their tax dollars are being spent there. So I either need a better response from staff or the YMCA themselves to make sure that the public will be able to access the properties were ECHO dollars are going to be spent. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I think the Y would be better suited to answer the question. With a caveat I will share. Originally the plan was to originally bring these to the last meeting. By changing into this meeting the YMCA CEO is in... (Audio Issues) **Audio lost** **Audio restored** JEFFREY BROWER: ... I think ECHO is set up for the general public, not just for the paying public. So that has happened. And I have not seen any kind of supplemental information that the public wants this. I guess I need to be sold too. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I would defer to The Y. SPEAKER: Good morning, I'm David Chard, I am the CFO. You probably all know how a soccer complex works. I've grand children on soccer teams, we go to the games and don't pay any fee to go to the games. After the well-being of the... We have teams sponsored by the Y, those participants pay a fee to be in the youth sports program of the YMCA. And they play a team from someone else that's not sponsored by the Y, they are paying a fee to the Y or anything like that. It is a very open thing. It's not open to the general public to just go out there anytime you want to and kick the ball around with your son. For two reasons, one is it has to be maintained. And people bring teams and and start to use the field, and the one that is not artificial turf. The one that is natural turf will wear down pretty quickly. So the idea is that the artificial turf field will be used extensively for practices, and the competitive games will take place on the natural grass sector. That is to be maintained, thus to be insured. The YMCA has insurance, if someone sprained a leg, and ankle, whatever. Those are costs involved. We can't just leave it open for people to just come out there whenever they want, but it's the whole community soccer complex. JEFFREY BROWER: Mr. Shaw, I think you're going to have more questions. What is your position? SPEAKER: I am the CFO. JEFFREY BROWER: That's actually very encouraging. Full disclosure, I know you, I know you well. I know how well-equipped you are financially. So that is encouraging to me. David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: I will have question for him Mr Chair, I have questions for Brad. JEFFREY BROWER: Does anybody have questions for Mr. Shaw? Do you mind if we...? TROY KENT: I do. Mr. Shaw, thank you for coming forward. I heard you say this is everyone's soccer field, but also in the same breath you can't just come up and walk to the field. That is not helping me with my hesitation because it does not feel like it is everybody's soccer field. For example, in Ormond Beach. The City of Ormond Beach give money to the YMCA and they have believe it or not Council, a dog park. And that dog park is set up in the way that it's located so that anybody – unless I'm wrong, or me to shaking your head on right. Can walk up and use that dog park, because Ormond Beach residents, they put in on this, they participated. They paid with their tax dollars. And again, Council, maybe one of you will have to help me with it. I'm not seeing how this is everybody's field if not everybody can access it whenever they want to. SPEAKER: Of course the dog park is a lot different than a soccer complex in terms of the way it has to be cared for and maintained. We have had in the last couple of months, have had to call the sheriff to come out and arrest someone people who were doing drugs out on the field. It's at the end of the parking lot, go out there and have a party. Of course we can't allow that kind of thing. There's been vandalism out there. So there's a chain up, you can just drive your car out onto the soccer field. We have those kind of restrictions. TROY KENT: Nobody should be driving on a soccer field. No one should be doing drugs on the soccer field, but how would Troy Kent – I am in Deltona, I am visiting the area. And I am like you know what? I'm going to go kick the soccer ball around. How do I get on your field? Tell me how that is going to work. SPEAKER: You come into the Y, we give you a guest pass, and you go out there. TROY KENT: I can get how many guest passes throughout the year? SPEAKER: Six. TROY KENT: After six visits I'm done? I can't use the field. SPEAKER: Then you become some sort of member if you want to continue. If you are that avid a soccer player. TROY KENT: But I am adamant about it because ECHO paid for a portion of that soccer field. So I may not want to be a member of the Y but want to purchase a bit on the field my ECHO dollars paid for. Thank you, you've been very helpful for me. JEFFREY BROWER: Anyone have any questions for David Chard? DAVID SANTIAGO: I want to ask aggression that I will go to Brad. Can you talk about your scholarship program? SPEAKER: Yes, thank you. We don't protect anybody, once they come to the Y because they can't afford to pay. If you want to put your kid in youth sports want to put your kid in child care, you want to exercise and you can't afford to. There is a financial aid process. We have an annual scholarship campaign, it's a fundraising campaign. Ours just finished at the end of March for the year. In the money raised during the first three months of the year we used 25" ships the rest of the year. Last year we had $600,000 worth of scholarship awarded to all different kinds of people with various needs. Second children, their children in the program, those kind of things. And membership that people can't afford to get their dementia because they have an adverse situation at home or in their work or whatever. DAVID SANTIAGO: So it's safe to say no but easily denied? By lack of income? SPEAKER: Yes. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, Mr. Shaw. DAVID SANTIAGO: Brad, can you give me a little bit of a – examples of other ECHO type of projects that we have funded that have fees for access control and how do they operate? BRAD BURBAUGH: Correct. Pickle ball, at Pictona is a prime example of an exceptional project that requires a fee to use. One of the things we ask in ECHO fees, as we build pavilions, we ask you have a uniform fee structure for people across Volusia County. We cannot say DeBary residents will pay $10 to rent this pavilion, that was built with ECHO, and all other residents outside of the city will pay $20. Pictona is one, the Athens theater is another example of one. I have done this analysis when I first have done this to get an understanding and there is about 30, and I would think the ones that, we have added a few since then, but over 30 projects and I think we talk about sustainability of projects. I think that these folks have done the analysis and understand that they cannot live on government alone so they have got to charge a fee. DAVID SANTIAGO: So, there is president to do it this way – is that what you're saying? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. DAVID SANTIAGO: I will ask my friend Troy's questions. (Multiple speakers) DAVID SANTIAGO: If you want to. I just got comments. BRAD BURBAUGH: What makes us a little different as it's a membership versus a fee. One of the things we do and staff is we negotiate with The Y, how are you going to advertise this? This one is no one is turned away. For some in Ormond, we have it placed on the flyers, and sometimes they have open days during the month that allows free public access. There are hours that they may provide free public access. Each project has a negotiated pathway for public access. That is free. DAVID SANTIAGO: Mr. Chair, I will wrap up with this. This particular project, three minutes from my house. It is used widely. When they have activities there, I can see the Wolfpack run there is packed, and comes around and I can walk there in probably five minutes. I think there is precedent in the way it operates versus paying a fee every single time, or you can become a member and if you cannot afford to, you can have access otherwise. I don't know if other programs have similar grant programs, they may, but I think this one is worthy and utilized. I am open to the conversation in the future to figure out how we handle things that are may be fee accessible, but I think, right now, staff is done the work that checks the box. BRAD BURBAUGH: For Council's situational awareness, the individual compliance specialists that visit the project twice a year while they are in construction, and once every three years after construction, make sure that the Y is advertising and doing the things they said in the applications when we show up for the visits. We have, in the past, we have seen the flyer come across the desk and it does not say that the public can access it for free on these days. So please, add it. Just so you are aware. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: I just want to add, don't cities have certain ECHO fields paid for by ECHO that the reserve, or lockup when not in use? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. JAKE JOHANSSON: And only use for sanctioned events, popular's football, soccer. BRAD BURBAUGH: Daytona stadium is a prime example. JAKE JOHANSSON: That is all I have. Thank you for answering it twice. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Dr. Burbach, thank you. Is it complete? Are they missing anything? Are they set up for success? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. DANNY ROBINS: No further questions. MATT REINHART: Danny took my questions. Dr. Burbaugh, how did the county retain the hunting room Tuesday determine the need for the soccer fields? For the west of the county, have become back with a report on what the needs are for these types of facility on the west side of the county? BRAD BURBAUGH: The preliminary draft report, yes. MATT REINHART: What did they say? Do we need improved fields? BRAD BURBAUGH: We need multipurpose fields, I read it a few weeks ago so do not quote me on it. The birth of fields we need on the west side of the county. MATT REINHART: Will this help fill in the void? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, the goal is to have league play, you have the league supported with the field, here. JEFFREY S BROWER: Matt Reinhart? MATT REINHART: I will reiterate one thing, one of my colleagues a while back talked about how being consistent and how important it is, and I think, consistency, it's going to be the key thing here. Following the rules, being consistent. You have pointed out the few structures that we have, I said structures but lack of a better word, few places we have like the Athens Theater, the things that charge a fee that have ECHO dollars poured into it. We are being consistent and I want to make sure that we stress. That being said, I will make a motion to approve. DANNY ROBINS: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: You can still make your motion. Matt Reinhart makes a motion to approve, second was by Danny Robins. Jake, do you have a question for Brad? JAKE JOHANSSON: Something peaked my interest. YMCA has league soccer teams right now, in existence? SPEAKER: (Away from mic) JAKE JOHANSSON: Do they have soccer teams in existence? In Volusia Flagler? Do they play on YMCA only fields? So, by having this field – JEFFREY S BROWER: Mr. Shaw, can you come up to the microphone. JAKE JOHANSSON: The answer was no. YMCA teams inviting other teams, to this field, there is indications that they will free up the non-YMCA field for additional play, as well, right? Right now they would play. It does increase the inventory in a roundabout way on the west side is what I am seeing. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: One more question for you. Are you a CPA? SPEAKER: No. JEFFREY S BROWER: An accountant? OK. It has been years since I have seen you, but I remember as an accountant you are very gifted. That does give me some encouragement but however, the issues we have had with the YMCA before was not so much with the way that money was handled, but following the guidelines. Will you be overseeing that? SPEAKER: I will be in charge of that. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, thank you. Troy Kent? TROY KENT: Thank you, chairman. Thank you, council. Some of the comments did help me, Santiago, your district especially yours and Dr. Burbaugh has his pencil ready and playing close attention to these once he awarded. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Karissa, I will ask you to call the role. KARISSA GREEN: Mr Johansson, Mr. Dempsey, Mr. Ken, Mr Reinhart, Mr Robins, Mr. Santiago, Mr. Brower. JEFFREY S BROWER: This passes 7 to 0. Although it was a strain but what you are learning, everybody is this council is going to be a stickler for sticking with the guidelines. We want to spend the public money the way they expect us to not want this to become political football. BRAD BURBAUGH: We hear you loud and clear. The last project that is recommended for funding from your Advisory Council is the Lake Beresford at the Stetson Aquatic Center. The total request is $600,000 and the total matches $600,000 a $1.2 million project. To showcase green and protector through the creation of a living shoreline, construction of dock for use, and will give public access to the water. Comments from Advisory Committee members is it benefits Deland and the county, it is well written and informative application and a great project that is shovel ready. The DANNY ROBINS: I have personally been out of this facility, the checks a lot of boxes for with this counsel has called for an is looking for, motion to approve. JAKE JOHANSSON: Second Johansson. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve by Danny Robins, second budget Johansson. Troy Kent? TROY KENT: Was the application complete? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. TROY KENT: Nothing was missing? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: No. TROY KENT: Plan for success? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Have we given any other private universities money? BRAD BURBAUGH: (unknown name), Stetson. TROY KENT: There is precedents? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes. JEFFREY S BROWER: Is anybody here from Stetson? TROY KENT: My name is up there, if Stetson, if you want to come up and say how the public will help utilize this, that will help me. BRAD BURBAUGH: I will let Stetson. JEFFREY S BROWER: Stetson, if you want to come up, and I will give you my hesitation as well. I love this project. I love the aquatic center. I have been out there numerous times. My concern is in giving public taxpayer money to private university with very large endowment, 355+ million dollars. Could the University do this on their own without going to taxpayers to go and pay for it? SPEAKER: Sidney Johnston, associate Commissioner grants in Stetson. I am with a team that is help build this proposal over the last several years. Our chairman of the board, Mr. Steven Alexander, Chief of Staff, (unknown name), and top shelf grant writer, Kelly McGee, and the Riverside CE. Directly to your question, the answer is, no. We want to do this with ECHO money. That is a critical piece of the public access that Stetson prides itself on. We have existing grant there, since woody 16, that provides free public access, not just to an open park, but also to the waters of Lake Beresford. This will enhance the first grant. I'm glad to take any other questions. JEFFREY BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: So this peninsula that I got to tour, it will be open to the public. You have shown us a picture right here of the area. Right? What's that junk in the water next to the trail there? Those... Looks like little game cubes or something. I know the answer, could you answer the please? SPEAKER: Absolutely. Part of this project is in honor of Matt Weiler who is a nephew of President Chris Wilkie (?) who could not join us today. This project began with the impetus of our Chief of Staff, Rena (unknown name) and top shelf environmental scientist Doctor Jason Evans. Speaking with Chris, Doctor (unknown name) about the loss of his nephew, and how important this project is because Matt was a fisherman. A conservationist who loved the water. So these are attractors that help build the resiliency that has been lost on the peninsula. The peninsula was created by the dredging of looking at the site in the 1950s and 60s. Overtime, water, wind, tropical storms and hurricanes have eroded the peninsula. So those devices that are part of best practices for living shorelines help create visual interest, as well as bringing fishes to the region. And we are expecting that this will become a site that supplements the exciting manatee experiences at a nearby blue spring. I'm sorry for the long answer, I think I answered it. JAKE JOHANSSON: Absolutely, and one of the things I think is important about ECHO is this is Stetson University, it's a private university, but the water by and large is public. In some of the value added here is to the lake and to the area, as well as the public that is going to be walking in the ADA approved path to see all these great things. I am pretty supportive of this project, just... Not because... Well because it very much supports the environment, and I very much don't care that it's Stetson and that we have access to it. SPEAKER: Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you Chairman, thank you once again. Make sure, cautions and statements, will just go off observations when I was there on why this qualifies. Anyone that is been there, if you look at the center and along the shoreline, they have a lot of native plants and are promoting native plants, they are teaching about native plants. What does that equate to in our language? LID. They are doing everything that qualifies and to promote this LID push that members of this council have been on. They do that same thing with the college, and follow the same line when it comes to education and falling in line with not regulation that this Council has made a standing to deny future relation. So education is a big thing. Does this improve the wate quality, yes or no? SPEAKER: Yes. DANNY ROBINS: What I thought, and shoreline resiliency, protects the shoreline. (Indiscernible) hit in that area to further protect the investment in college is made, the public have made in the ECHO tax dollars have made correct? Resiliency. SPEAKER: It's a significant investment by the County and Stetson University. And we are on the hook for 20 years. DANNY ROBINS: I'm good with that, it fits everything this Council has said both past, present, and what were looking to do in the future that is in line with the president that we set with the program as well. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. I'm going to go back to the question that I answered – that I asked. I'm struggling with your answer, not sure I understand it. I said could you... You have a $356 million endowment. Could you do this without taxpayer money? You said no. And he related that to the ability to have public access. Is that the only way the public would have access if you do this to her in ECHO Grant? SPEAKER: The public has access to the site for 40 years from our 2016 grant. This enhances that access by creating a new dock or boardwalk that's in the neighborhood of... Let me get this right. 266 feet of dock or boardwalk, and 195 feet of that is in the water. That provides a brand-new opportunity that Stetson and would not build. Not at this time. JEFFREY BROWER: Unless you had taxpayer money. SPEAKER: Yes sir. And we have done this before. Where Solomon reported, we have good participation, 10 to 12,000 persons a year. In addition to that, what we have not been counting it will begin counting our those rowing teams who come to use the site in January and February generally during the winters were the New England and mid-Atlantic rowing teams cannot practice back home. So this year we had a number of teams from the farther north, Executor, Iowa, Dartmouth. And so you are welcome, all of us from Volusia County. All of us anywhere are welcome to come, access the site, to watch these teams and stats rowing team practice. If you have never seen the long boats, some of which are nearly 60 feet long. Practice on Lake Beresford, it is an experience. So please come and enjoy the public access, in this fabulous site that is many different things. But let me pause to stress that our first grant was in O for outdoor recreation. This grant is a E for environment. So with one site we do two things with taxpayer funding. And we are on the hook for a long time. So please come enjoy. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, thank you for your answer. We have one more question, I just going to let the Council know I'm struggling with this one. Danny, you are right. There are many benefits to this project. It will help clean up the water, it is a good teaching tool. My issue is in my opinion the stretches the intent of ECHO to give taxpayer money to a private University who – when I look at the money, could easily afford this without asking the taxpayers to pay for it. David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think your points are well taken, at least for me, something that we should look into and consider for future. My struggle with it today is that it's met the requirements. I would be willing to have that discussion to see how we do it going forward, and I think staff is done the work to say that it meets requirements. There's precedent. But I'm open to the dialogue Mr Chair, I think it's open to good discussion. But I think if they met the boxes, checked the boxes are ready, going back to what I commented earlier... Yes, exactly. Mr Chair, not having done this in a while, I would like to call in question. TROY KENT: Troy, you have just been stepped on. TROY KENT: Santiago, you OK? Jeffrey may call to action, we have devoted medially but he's yielded (Indiscernible). (Multiple speakers) TROY KENT: I will say this chairman, not that I'm trying to help you on this. This is where my mind went with it. I have some of the same concerns you shared. It is obvious to me that... **Audio lost** **Audio restored** TROY KENT: My concern is public access and I think you answer that question. I think the ECHO Board had some healthy questions for you as well when this came up because of the public access piece. We want to make sure the public can participate and can access and are not being shunned away. And listen, Stetson students either from this area or outside of this area, they are ours man, there Volusia County residents while they are here and I love that they are here. So I think that they can afford it chairman, but I think if any of us were in that situation and there was a government program that was for these purposes. And like Mr Santiago said, and Mr Robins said, the application was complete. They weren't missing anything, they have a plan for future success. OK. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. And of comments? Then I will call to question. All in favor of the Stetson University Lake Beresford Shoreline restoration say Aye. Any opposed? SPEAKER: Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Motion carries 7-0. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I think we – we are willing to have a further conversation for that. Is it just for the public record, would like councilmembers to know and or taxpayers that the 10 projects that have been funded by the ECHO tax assessment that are operated by the University send this County. Those projects have as the primary use, public, the public use. So one of the things I will share with you based on my experience is that these... Governments and like universities are the best operating partners that we have. So part of the conversation that is missing is that they have agreed to operate this for our public for 20 years, and that's their money, not taxpayer money. That's private University money used to operate this facility. I did pull the annual reports from these 10 projects that we funded over the years in terms of what does the public access look like, does not include student access. In these 10 projects in the last annual report, 288,000 visitors. If we eliminate universities from accessing, we have eliminated a good operating partner for these projects. With that being said, I will... Differ mac and thank you for that. SPEAKER: Yes sir, absolute legal but open to having the conversation. The next was one that was, your staff reviewed and recommended approval. Made eligible by the advisory committee but did not score the minimum 80, scored 79.29. From the City of New Smyrna Beach, and expansion to the Skate park. The request was for 148,000, they were bringing 153,000 to the table. So at this point in time it is not recommended for funding, but you can see what the description was. I asked my team to dig into the transcript to help provide a better understanding so I could explain to Council why this didn't meet the threshold. One of the things I think that was discussed during the committee and may be, now this is speculative because I don't want to speak for the committee. There is very little discussion. When the score is played out, they received a 79.29. The RFP could have been improved. So was a process that was described in the application that they would go out and get public input once the grant application was approved. Kind of typically we will see cities or applicants that will do that first. And understand what the community wants. This was a little, a different process. But that's the best insights I can give you on why we are where we are with this one. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you, and I will let the Council know before Mr Santiago calls for the vote that (Laughs). We do have four members of the public from someone who would like to speak to this. But first Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you Chairman. Dr Burbaugh, was the application relate? Mac yes. TROY KENT: It is complete? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: Plan for success? Fell under the threshold of 80 under 79.29. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes. TROY KENT: When can we have another cycle for them to come back? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: There is organization associated with this agenda item that comes from your Advisory Council to establish a second grant cycle this year. Precedent for that. It would begin in four weeks. If it is approved by this council. I've given you a calendar, draft calendar for otherwise they would return in November as part of our annual cycle. TROY KENT: I hate that this one didn't get 80. Ormond Beach implemented and created a skate park years ago. And I love that new Smyrna has one. This new 8000 ft.² addition I'm sure would be welcome for that community there. If you have not been to a skate park in a while, I recommend you go and stop by at different times throughout the day. Because it's not what you might think. I would just speak for the one in Ormond. We have a vendor there and make sure that the language is appropriate. And the behaviors are appropriate. And there are – the age of kids that you think would be there. But there's also dads and moms with three, four and five years old participating as well. It's wholesome, and it is nice to see. I am disappointed this one did not meet the 80 threshold. It's close. But why do we have rules set if we aren't going to follow them? That's my only concern with this one. Is we've set rules, if we aren't going to follow the rules that we've said, then why have any rules? Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, Chair. Mr. Kent, thank you for that support, and Ormond has one, this is huge with the family down there, second with pickle ball, down there, and we talk to the families, we asked what they want and pickle ball was one of them and skate park was the other. I think we can get there on this. Ultimately, Mr. Kent, this is a recommendation. You are right about the rules. We have also done direct expenditures, when it came to certain things in the past which, I don't necessarily agree with, but I think we can still get there. Mr. Burbaugh, you said we can come back in four weeks I would like to give the council an opportunity to look over the paperwork and score this themselves to see if there was any discrepancies in the scoring, unless they have already done it. Ultimate, do we have that power in that way to also score this? BRAD BURBAUGH: Absolutely, and there is precedent for that. Councilwoman Gartman was on the Council, there was a project that is scored within one point, and his counsel may make a motion at any time since on this project, now and in the future. DANNY ROBINS: I would like to hear what my fellow council members have to say and do. JAKE JOHANSSON: Just to clarify, by voting today, we rescore it. We either take the score, adjust the score and improve it, right? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. JAKE JOHANSSON: Mr. Kent asked a bunch of questions that you answered affirmative to. Correct? BRAD BURBAUGH: Two affirmative, and one no. JAKE JOHANSSON: As far as meeting the prerequisites, other than the score, which is not exactly scientific, they met everything they needed to meet? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir and staff recommended approval. JAKE JOHANSSON: Staff recommended approval. I bring to council attention that we not often but occasionally go against the PLDRC recommendation and allow variances and things of that nature. I see this as a board that gave us their honest opinion on what they think. I got an email or two from a few folks that stated that they were surprised this did not pass either. The fact that we operate in the sunshine, they do not collude, they had no way of knowing and doctoring it, and saying, "79.9, I am going to up my two points, and let's make this one a pass." They had to provide as they was I'm having a problem with this because it was so close and it is a great way to get kids off of the street and doing something similar organizationally. I respect everybody's comment here, but I do not want to catch myself in a position where I am going by the grade here, and put my foot down and then when we go to other advisory committees recommending something AHAC, PLDRC, I have talked about a few others. I suggest we give ourselves the latitude to approve or disapprove this based on the merits of the application, and what it is for. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: Dr Burbaugh... BRAD BURBAUGH: You are the decision-makers. DON DEMPSEY: We need to get kids outside and doing things. It is not just walking trails that we need in this county. We need stuff that excites kids, to get them out of the house, off of the computers, and phones, and get them out and doing athletic stuff. Kids don't necessarily like walking on trails as they do riding dirtbike or skateboarding or playing soccer. Anything that gets him outside and exercising. I agree with Jake I hate to see something get shot down because of an exact numbering system. This is a guideline. BRAD BURBAUGH: Correct, we provide a rubric to the committee to make it more objective evaluation, than subjective, but Councilmember Johansson is correct. There is no way to know, to collect the scores in a public meeting that it wouldn't score until the very end in the process is done. DON DEMPSEY: This is been done before. BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. DON DEMPSEY: I'm encouraged. TROY KENT: The threshold is 80 and this came below the threshold, why did staff recommend approval if it did not meet the threshold? BRAD BURBAUGH: We do our review before the committee. We do our review of the application, we provide a summary and our concerns, comments and findings, and we provide that to committee as a part of their evaluation. We do not score the application. The committee does. TROY KENT: Thank you, very much. BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. JEFFREY S BROWER: Brad, before you go, does this project include the Pro shop, pro skate shop? BRAD BURBAUGH: I would ask if you let New Smyrna provide their public comment, my team and I will review the application. I believe it does not, I believe it is the amenities that are provided. It is not included, but it will be on-site. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. BRAD BURBAUGH: We will double check that. JEFFREY S BROWER: Matt, you want to ask a question? MATT REINHART: To double check, I had notes written, I dug down on this because I knew there was good to be questions on it. Don, you had said that the keyword I was looking for. The scoring is a guideline. Mr. Burbaugh, you enter the next question with respect to why it was recommended without scoring. To me, when it is that close, it is safe to say that there is a bit of subjectivity in the scoring? Based on the opinions, if you look at the scoring on the sheet, there is one or two of them that was so far vastly different. That is where I had the most concern about that. Why was this one person off? We just had a park, skate park in District 2, in South Daytona that is shut down. That concerned me because like the rest of you, I want kids to have the outdoor activities, instead of being inside. Get them outside, outside, we all grew up like this. now, they are all inside on the computers I tell my grandkids to get outside. This is a perfect opportunity. I'm leaning towards a yes because it's one point off. I want to mention that. BRAD BURBAUGH: The Pro shop is not part of the request, it is on-site but not part of the grant request. JEFFREY S BROWER: You just heard what Matt said, so no pressure but Kelly, do you want to come first? We have got four members of the public that would like to speak. SPEAKER: Good morning, Mr Chairman thank you very much and Council members, my name is (unknown name) city manager for the City of New Smyrna Beach. As most of you have commented, the scoring is subjective. What happened is the lowest grade on the sheet is 65 and 73, and one of the members was concerned about the construction. I have 35 years expense, I'm not sure what the concern was the design all but I think the cost of the project would increase. The scope and the amounts was indicated. The last thing I want is the council to go against their policy, but, again, if it was because it was subjective with 79.29, I think it does not make sense, and I would recommend that and I encourage the council to approve the project. It is highly used by our youth, in New Smyrna, and it's probably the only skate park in southeast Volusia. The kids, as I think one of the councilmembers indicated, three and four and five years older outside with the dads and mothers. As you can see, we have five staff members here, it is a small city, every dollar counts. We appreciate if you can approve it, thank you very much. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Jessie (unknown name) followed by Chad Gibson, followed by Rob Salazar. SPEAKER: SPEAKER: Capitol improvement project manager for the city of New Smyrna Beach, I have only been there almost one year now, I have over 20 years of its current and capitol improvements and project management for places partnering with companies like NASA, also building hospital facilities around the globe with different countries to local municipalities, building docs,piers, boardwalks and so forth. Looking at New Smyrna Beach and the project was one of my recommendations to do a design build because as you do different projects there's not a one-size-fits-all. We do design first and we wanted construction but something from my perspective it is most advantageous to have a successful project when you design and build at the same time. Part of the reason is that because skate parks our unique feature, they are not a common thing, there's not a lot of companies that specialize in building skate parks. Most of the times is the one that completes the designs it will build it. That is part of the recommendations. The designer and builder is the same place and it would expedite the time. That's my reasoning behind that, and as (unknown name) shared, there's a lot of people, we have been there and be up at the building that was mentioned on site, the Pro shop. It's establishing up and running, kudos to our team, that is all I have to share. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, Chad Gibson? SPEAKER: Thank you, Council. Chad Gibson, CIP and grant coordinator for City of New Smyrna Beach and resident of Volusia County. I have a couple of things to address with the ECHO skate park expansion. As a resident, all you hear about, in New Smyrna and Volusia County, is where you go and skate? There's not a lot of places to actually go and this would, again, as council has already pointed out, the safety reasons and get them off the street, more expansion to be able to skate freely in the skate park. You don't want them running into each other, this was a successful project designed and built. We want to say thank you for the support already, for the skate park itself, to ECHO, and that is what I want to point out. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, Rob Salazar? SPEAKER: Thank you counsel, Rob Salazar, (Indiscernible) director for City of New Smyrna Beach. To add to whatever city staff is pointed out. The city completed the installation of the new 900 square-foot modular building that replaced the previous building onset that was 20 years old. It was an old portable, and we completed the install in January. One of the comments we had from the advisory committee was we did not have the skin in the game to recommend to move forward with that, but I wanted to point that out that the building was outside of the ECHO grant scope, but we have completed that just recently. Additionally, it's free skating when the the park is open. How the park works, there is a fenced area, we have operating hours that - you have to come through the building to access the park. That adds to the safety of the park. In the residence in the park covers really love that, the families would support that concept. Additionally, this potential expansion if approved would increase the volume of skaters we could (Indiscernible) substantially, along the lines of what Mr. Reinhart said, giving the opportunity to the youth and families to be outdoors. We would be able to serve more youth and families that we have previously. Thank you for your consideration, I hope you guys approve it. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Councilman Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Motion to approve. MATT REINHART: Second. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Danny Robins make a motion to approve, second was by Matt Reinhart. Don Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: I had a question of any of you all from New Smyrna. This is an just a skate park, you are allowed to ride BMX bikes as well, are right? There's no BMX bikes aloud? Just skateboarders? OK. TROY KENT: I can help, they can ride their BMX bike to the skate park. They get on the skate board, that way you don't have bicyclists running into... DON DEMPSEY: Because in Port Orange we have ECHO funded skate parks that allows bicycles. In DeLand we have skateboards and bicycles mixed. SPEAKER: is a little different because of how compact the space in the park is. When we get a lot of traffic, the BMX and the skate... It's kind of sketchy coming crossing paths and whatnot. That was part of the established rules when the park went up. The park was originally built with ECHO support as well when it was constructed. So what we've done a little bit. We have had some BMX nights recently. But 99.9% of the time this is skate only. DON DEMPSEY: With the 8000 for the expansion without enable more time for the kids who ride BMX bikes? SPEAKER: We have not considered that yet but that could potentially be an option. I don't want to give promises. ... I would acknowledge, I also have not heard from the staff that's on-site that the BMX, the nature of the BMX. How they utilize the bowl, the rails and different components of the park. It also damages the park quicker than regular skates, so that is a consideration we also... That's just what I get from the staff on site. DON DEMPSEY: I am in favor of this, but I'm holding another segment of acuity that would maybe like to access with her bicycles, so I just hope you guys could carve out some time throughout the weeks to allow them use of it as well, not just skateboarders. SPEAKER: We can certainly give that consideration. JEFFREY BROWER: That's a great idea. Do you own a BMX bike, Don? (Laughter) Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Back in the day, writing a Mongers man, right? Councilman Dempsey, I'm glad you brought that up because I know at Ormond skate park they allow BMX bikes and skateboarders at the same time. I know they do. And New Smyrna listen, you do New Smyrna. You guys have one of the best surfing spots on the East Coast, and you have some romance with sharks down there as well which we won't get into. New Smyrna, you do New Smyrna. But I think Councilman Dempsey brings up a point. To your city manager first I think it would be a healthy discussion with your city commission New Smyrna to at least have that open dialogue to stop because you are right, there is a portion of the community and the youth that they like riding their bicycles in that park, and it can work. My comment on this also is I'm really pleased you have a fence. And a quick question. The building you have during operating hours, you said they have to access the park through the building, that what I heard? So they have to come through there? SPEAKER: Yes sir. TROY KENT: And you have a policy with bad behavior? One, two, three strikes you're out? SPEAKER: Yes sir. TROY KENT: I love hearing that also. Just because as a father, my son is a senior this year and would be mortified with me saying it. I hope he is in class and not listening online like my parents are, hey mom and dad. You know, not OK to have your kids anywhere in my opinion and be subjected to that inappropriate language. Is that something you also pay attention to? Is the language, the behaviors? SPEAKER: Yes sir, the staff we have on-site monitors the behavior of the youth and just all participants in general. It's always staff on the park open so there's always supervision. TROY KENT: City manager, you showed up, you brought your staff, they are prepared, ready for questions, homerun. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. I do not see any other comments. I will let the Council know, that for whatever it's worth, before this debate I did look at the scoring on this and came up with a score of 81.5. So (Laughs). So for me, I'm going to support this. I think it is a good project, I think it will be good for the youth of New Smyrna. So without any other (Audio Issues). **Audio lost** **Audio restored** BRADLEY BURBAUGH: ... For construction costs of this facility. As you guys are – as councilmembers are probably aware. We provided a memo that walks through the timeline and the decision process for this application. It came to you with a recommendation of approval from the advisory committee, and came to you with a recommendation from your staff of disapproval because they did not have the required construction documents to make it a shovel ready project at this point in time. They are still in the design phase of this project, and when you are in the design phase, it's very difficult to provide a firm plan that presents a complete picture of what our involvement would be and what taxpayers would get further investment. Through his universal agreement on this project that it's a good environmental project, but the fact that it situated on a preserve, on environmentally sensitive land, does not make the infrastructure development, especially public amenities and vertical construction founded in the various application different from all other ECHO echo projects that have these foundational elements. As such, your staff is applied the rules and is a matter to this project as they have been applied to other projects in an effort to provide a fair and transparent evaluation process for grant applicants and our taxpayers. This Council previously adopted rules that require shovel ready projects. The rule is working, and analysis by our auditor has indicated in the last iteration of Volusia Forever. It took on average 2.67 years to get a project completed. Since the implementation of this rule, it has taken 1.56 years to get projects completed. Full disclosure, we have a much larger dataset for the previous iteration of the program than we do for this. So I want that to be publicly shared as well. ECHO staff approach is always been to work with our municipal partners and non-governments -- our nonprofits, too and be successful in our rigorous nonpolitical grant evaluation process. In November when the grant process started, I engaged with the city manager and provided guidance on a pathway to success under the current rules. Instead of pathic aircraft the ECHO Grant process is flawed and resulted in the alternative path being proposed today was undertaken. So that is kind of a summary of where we are with DeBary application. JEFFREY BROWER: Vice-Chair Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you chairman, same question. With the application complete? What were they missing? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Required construction documents. TROY KENT: Do they have a plan to be successful in the future? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: For future documents, yes. TROY KENT: Is a shovel ready project? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes sir. TROY KENT: When will another cycle be able to come up? You answered earlier but I want to hear it again. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: April 25 would be the technical review for applications. TROY KENT: Was Daytona Beach denied on similar grounds in the past? If so can you please refresh my memory. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes, 20, it was the last cycle. They were denied for the same exact reason. TROY KENT: Last cycle Daytona Beach denied exact same reason? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes sir. TROY KENT: Thank. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you Mr. Kent. We have three people that would like to speak to this. I will start with Pat Northey. SPEAKER: First of all, you for all you do. It's hard making these kinds of decisions when talking about taxpayer dollars. I am here not as your ECHO chair. I'm fine to answer any questions if you have – about the committee, but I am here as an individual just speaking in support of Alexander Island. I would encourage you to vote for and fund the Alexander Island project that DeBary has requested as an exceptional project. There is a technical issue. As a member of the Echo board I believe the affirmative scope of the project deserve some exception. The ECHO board by a vote of 7-2 scored the project and scored within our guidelines. And you can now bring discredit project into the public trust. DeBary has proven they can move this project forward. Their issues are environmental, and as you all know. When you're dealing with environmental issues, sometimes dealing with the bureaucracy can be an issue. But I know they are going to address that and I would encourage you all to find them in compliance for your 200 – excuse me, the $2.5 million. Exceptional project. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: DeBary City manager Carmen Rosa Monta. If you would like the mayor to go first, Mayor (Unknown Name). SPEAKER: Good morning, Karen (Unknown Name) mayor of DeBary. First of all, thank you for listening to us on this project. It's a really important project we have worked very hard on. We have put a lot of taxpayer dollars in it. We believe that the plan we have going forward is the best use of taxpayer dollars, both ours and the ECHO dollars as well. Because we can accelerate the public access in opening this is a passive park. I will let the city manager address the issue of our selected process for building out this phase 1, which has 14 elements. The Alexander Island property was acquired for use as a passive recreation nature Park, and we paid 3.5 million of taxpayer dollars, yes they did come through the feds, through the ARPA plan, but we have a suitable for any city use and we dedicated that to the park. With the aim of protecting both the natural and cultural resources on the site. The park is intended to be managed only for the conservation, protection, and enhancement of those resources. A public outdoor recreation that is compatible with the conservation, protection, and enhancement of the site. These are the prioritized objectives: Protection of natural resources, providing regression opportunities for everyone. Provide freshwater research opportunities, there is a DEP support organization that has expressed an interest in having a location on the property for our water research facility. And that goes forward as not part of the ECHO application. To provide nature-based activities and programming, and provide access to the St. Johns River, and preserve cultural and archaeological resources as we may find them on the property. You do have the ability to decide that this can go forward, and I understand wanting shovel ready, efficient projects. This is as efficient as we can make it. And we have been working on it nonstop with massive public participation since acquiring it February 1, 2023. We believe with our project, with our plans which is a plan for success, that we could open it this December with the essential early elements, and that the other elements can be developed as the four environmental permits per element, in while the public has access. The direct appropriations that you do, which is your right, also do not have shovel ready plans. You know that you will do them. We submit we will do this, thank you very much. JEFFREY S BROWER: Carmen. SPEAKER: Thank you, chairman, counsel. I am Carmen (unknown name) city manager of DeBary. Our application is for phase 1 of a larger multi-phased project. As you know this is 170 acre project. Our mission is to build the most beautiful, the best, and enjoyable nature and conservation Park in the state of Florida. You may not know, but this 170 acre parcel was destined for the development, as it was part of a plan to build 256 homes on it. It was purchased in February 2023 to preserve this pristine property. Alexander Island meets two ECHO categories, it is a park in a certain portion of the Upland is a nature Park. It is also mostly environmental, as is got 2 miles of St. John's Riverfront. Environmental projects especially 2 miles of riverfront and 150 acres of wetlands are very complex. The time it takes to work with 3 to 4 environmental and wildlife agencies can be expensive. Using the ECHO shovel ready guidelines, we would not be able to initiate construction until we get all the engineering permits and construction plans completed and approved for an exceptional grant until March 2026. Before we applied, we conferred with staff prior to the application, and even though they cannot commit they recommended a design build strategy to improve our application. DeBary runs government like a business and we have fast tracked this project to get this major conservation Park open to the public as soon as possible. Within 13 months, we have gone from purchase, the concept, to engineering, to have our entrance fully ready to go. As seen on the chart there, it is ready. Even though your guidelines are not flexible enough for large-scale environmental projects, we recommended a three-step incremental design strategy to get us to the same guaranteed conclusion, and that is what your shovel ready objective was, to get these projects done. This design build also gets us to the same conclusion as your guidelines, accelerating this project by two years. As you can see on the chart, step one is the entrance to the park. It has been engineered and we received the St. John's River permit through two weeks ago. Step two, shell parking lot, restroom, nature trails through the historical (unknown name) of step three, although water amenities on the riverfront of boardwalk. (Bell rings) JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. SPEAKER: My apologies. JEFFREY S BROWER: Brad. Jake Johansson, do you have a question for Brad or for one of the representatives? JAKE JOHANSSON: They are using (unknown name) for this, is this something that is used successfully? BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir. JAKE JOHANSSON: I called that's current city manager at risk. BRAD BURBAUGH: We have allowed design build approach to save taxpayers dollars, that was what was recommended for, and that was – they were already down a different pathway, based on my conversations with Carmen. JAKE JOHANSSON: Sure. I think the main concern for the city right now is that they are on a track faster than we are willing to go, and they are assuming a little more risk than we are, as a policy, willing to assume. In the interest, because as council has talked about, compressing the time, making sure that things get done in time, is CMAR something that we ought to be considering as accepting a little risk, with some caveats in the policy? Or is it something we want to stay away from from the staff perspective? BRAD BURBAUGH: I will share that what our policy practice is that we do not engage in a CMAR contract until we have 60%, at least 6% of the design. To go out with the project. At this point in time, they are not at 60% with all that they have here. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. Technically, this is a project that should not have even come to the ECHO board in the current state? Or is that (Multiple speakers) BRAD BURBAUGH: Yes, sir, as you can see in the memo, in the eligibility phase, where typically this would be turned away as ineligible because of the incomplete application. There were some in artful wording and the motion to find it ineligible, rather than any affirmative. And it tied, so it meant it failed. It does not mean – if the tie vote for ineligibility fails, does not make it eligible. There is another motion to make eligible and I died for lack of second. Given the situation we found ourselves in, we moved it through the process to try to give it to council as many decision points as possible, in this decision-making process. In hindsight, Laura and I have talked about how to address these, in terms of having the motion eligibility both at Forever and ECHO in the affirmative so we don't find this situation again. So yes, it should not have made this for far. JAKE JOHANSSON: Copy. Having said all of that, and having a midterm review, can they get there, in your opinion? I will ask Carmen the same thing. Can they get there, in your opinion for the next cycle? BRAD BURBAUGH: I will say, bring a backup Carmen's PowerPoint. The shovel ready strategies outlined here does not take into account the additional cycle that is recommended by your committee. If you were to recommend having additional cycle, in four weeks, they would be able to turn the application in with award in October 2024. It kind of would align – I know they're saying they would be ready in December 2024, but this would protect the integrity of the program but also give them an opportunity. I will share with you that if during the committee meeting that Carmen and his team shared some initial drawings of these phase I improvements. I had art into construction engineering team review does any felt like the County engineer feels they are on track to, if we had another cycle, in four weeks, based on his review of the plans they have so far, they would be ready for that cycle. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. I will ask Carmen since you are sitting right there, I know you well enough to know you want to get the project going. Other than that, what is the big hurry? SPEAKER: While I'm not sure if we are going to be able to meet the next cycle because you are going to require shovel ready in four weeks and we are not going to be total shovel ready. The environmental, as dictated here, the permit is meant to be for our fishing pier, or kayak launches, it's going to take a year to get the permits, March 2025 to get the permits for the boardwalk and water amenities. This is why want to do incremental design build as we get the entrance in, build their way into the park. We get the other amenities in step 2 by December. While we are doing that, we are getting the water amenity and engineering done and completed. That is why we think that we can get the entire park opened, all the water amenities, by September 2025. If you are going to stick to shovel ready, the environmental projects in the permitting and engineering for the environmental is not going to be done until at least March 2025. JAKE JOHANSSON: It sounds like we're willing to accept 60%. Under CMAR, if you code under that route, it sounds like you are almost there there now based on staff engineer comments. SPEAKER: With all due respect will jump You have the ability to provide flexibility like the 60% that was recommended and provide a variance. We can build this better, cheaper and faster by using a design build methodology. And get this open to the public two years after. That is why we're working on a fast track to get this. We got 5.77 million invested in a residence, and its important to open the park as fast as we can. Because of the technicality of requiring construction plans on every single thing, and have it fully shovel ready, sometimes on the environmental project may not be the best strategy. JAKE JOHANSSON: And just to verify, you knew about the preconditions or the assumptions going into... (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: We conferred with staff. Even though they could not commit, and I appreciate Brad and everybody who has been working with the design build, might be a good strategy to approve our application. That is where we have been doing. A design build is, as your previous applicant said, is the best way to go. You get the architect and builder together. They designed it to be better, cheaper and faster, than what you do waiting until the whole project is shovel ready, and then you are subject to maybe two years later, the cost goes up again. JAKE JOHANSSON: Right. SPEAKER: And we do less in two years from now. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Can I call Ms Northey back? Pat, are you willing to – I asked that because you are probably the resident expert on ECHO. I'm talking about in general, Ms Northey, in your experience, so this does not happen, because I want to say I fully support the protocol. I wanted and I wanted as quickly as possible. I wanted as more than worthy of it. What language in your opinion for items in chapter 50 or 72, this is a thing right now, what would you recommend language wise that we can change so we do not run into this on good project. That is loaded question. PAT NORTHEY: I do think that annually, the ECHO committee does review language as things come in. It's my opinion in this point, as having gone through this project with DeBary, and seeing this first of all, listed as an outdoor recreation, it really is a lot about resiliency and about the shoreline, the shoreline access, and knowing the river. I know you know that River. We, as a committee, my recommendation, and I go off as Chair next month, to review those sections of the application process and look at how we deal with environmental. If you look at the breakdown of ECHO, by the alphabet, the letters, if I recall correctly, the E in ECHO is the least that we fund. To me, there is, there must be a reason for that. We had to take, as a committee, take a long, hard look at how we do that, and you exactly what you are saying, is reviewed the elements. We try to make and be consistent. Maybe, and there has been some discussion on the board about, do we have different elements for different parts of ECHO. Maybe that is what we need to go to, and have a conversation about that. We do that annually, and staff has been great. I love working with the staff. We just had a difference of opinion. By seven, we ended up staying forward this project onto you can make a decision. Is that important? The River was that important for us to take a look at and say that we understand the river doesn't work for the E and ECHO. To say that we understand the application process may not work well for the UE in ECHO. DANNY ROBINS: We are having a workshop where we talk about these things on April 30. You mentioned debris accuracy and a lot of these environmental hold backs that are now affecting a project that I think we all want. Would you be willing… I think you saw the team out there, would you be willing to help look for us and see where we can trim some stuff that is maybe not necessary at this point or is overlapping with state regulations that is extending wait times on permits that we are now seeing. We want something but also what is good for the goose has to be good for the gander. We have to be consistent. If you are willing to work with us, I'm going to try to get you there and fight for you. Thank you for helping. PAT NORTHEY: I appreciate that. Thank you. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: A point-of clarification, the rules upon by this Council do not include permits in hand, it is instruction documents in hand. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Okayed. I had a question about the environmental permits we keep here. They will take about a year. Is that from county or state? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: State and federal. JEFFREY S. BROWER: State and federal? That is why take so long for the BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Army Corps and this state is what they are telling me. JEFFREY S. BROWER: You're saying it is recommended we allow them to go to another cycle to give them time to get ready? That would be four weeks from now. Carmen said we still won't be ready. What happens after that if they aren't ready? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I misspoken my team corrected me when I sat down for such a mandatory workshop would be in April and four weeks. The application is due in seven weeks, in the middle of June. And as a point-of-care vacation, this application was submitted in November. So now we have had December... We have had eight months since this was submitted to submit some of the drawings that are required. They could also ask for a smaller amount to complete with a hat for the drawings. JEFFREY S. BROWER: That was my next question. We keep hearing about phases. This is for an exceptional grant that sounds like it has been broken down into phases. Could they come back and say it is not an exceptional grant but a standard grant to get started to get the entrance done? Or does that start holding all over again? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: They could come back but the public would need to be part of the project… Well without analysing something about public access was the entry will provide public access to the facility. So… When we get into a hairy situation is when we do infrastructure only. And not amenities. JEFFREY S. BROWER: You can probably tell I'm struggling with this one. This is a beautiful piece of property. I want this project to go through. But Carmen just talked about the requirements as technicalities… That puts all of us in a bad position. It's not technicalities, we are supposed to be overseeing the ECHO project, and there are rules in place that should be followed. When Daytona Beach didn't follow them, we sent them back and now they got it together and brought it back. So this takes into the realm of politics because Carmen, everyone respects you and of the work you have done locally! You run a good city, Mayor (Unknown Name) has several fans appear, she is an amazing Mayor! Everyone wants us to pass but some of us… I don't know who because we can't talk about this before… Want the rules to be followed. We need to protect the integrity of the ECHO grant process. To make it political is damaging to the entire ECHO process. You know? This is coming to us as an exceptional grant which means that it serves the entire county. I think your estimate is that it would serve almost 30,000 people. You have one of the best parks in Volusia County, in the Rob Sullivan Park in DeBary, that was a standard grant and it served 158,000 people. So I'm also struggling with the exceptional grant part of this. Troy Kent? TROY KENT: Thank you chairman. SPEAKER: You talk about shovel ready projects for seven years, is that right? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: 2.5... SPEAKER: Seven to 2.5. We want this to get done in a expeditious timeline so our residents can get out and enjoy what our committee has to offer. Counsel, just so you know I met with the mayor (Unknown Name). Thank you very much. We had a nice afternoon where we walked to the property. I was able to see it. I had not laid eyes on it before and I was appreciative of that. I also appreciate that you said the tax dollars were also COVID funds, OK? So it is still tax dollars but it's a little different... Multimedia does matter a little bit because it is a little different. Federal tax dollars, you can say it is all tax dollars but I think it was a smart move on DeBary's part to use those funds for that purpose.--TROY KENT: The question I was going to have for you bread is how long is this going on? And you said eight months so where are they on the design process now eight months later? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I can tell you based on the drawings they provided that the grant panel review meeting which was last month… A month ago? March. They are close on the first phase based on those drawings. That was the County engineer's judgement and I will let Todd jump in here if he has something to add. But we reviewed them together and he said the timeline is reasonable because of the plans they are presenting if they were to come back in October. TROY KENT: Okayed, then Brad… This is sort of a rhetorical question here but why do we have these roles? One reason is to protect the integrity of the ECHO program. And another is to make sure that taxpayers are indeed protected. BRET BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Protected but provided full stop I came from both sides. When I came we did not have this role, the shovel ready role. And based on situational awareness when we approve of a project in the design phase, we are not getting a full picture, because the designing and engineering phase impacts the budget. So at this point it's just estimates. What was on the last cycle when we accepted non-shovel ready projects in the design phase they were essentially coming to counsel multiple times for scope changes. So decreasing the amenities that are going to provide the community based on the cost estimates that became evident later in the process when your engineering design aligns with construction and your estimate. So it's not painting the full picture when we improve things only design phase. TROY KENT: Thank you for that detailed answer. Comes on with the rest of you and what you mention, I want this to happen! It is a wonderful thing for DeBary and Volusia County and this region of Florida, absolutely! When I heard the city manager saying that he wanted to be the best in the state of Florida, my ears perked up. I love that! That's a great goal and I want that to happen. How do I approve this when we sent Daytona packing and said no for the same reasons? That is a concern of mine. So I'm struggling with that and I think with what Doctor Burbaugh mentioned with the next cycle I think they will get the required information and have it ready for at least a phase or two right away. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I think it is important to be flexible. I committed that when I was nominated as your resource stewardship Director to operate the program with transparency and integrity. One of the things you step has done with our work with the County engineer and our purchasing division is recommend some solutions in terms of language when your ECHO advisory committee meets on April 11. So were going to have that discussion with the committee in terms of do we need to be more flexible on our approach here, and it may come with recommendations for changes to the guidebook and rules. But I think changing them in the middle of a process is not the right thing to do. TROY KENT: Councilman Reinhart? MATT REINHART: Full disclosure, Carmen met with us and showed us the drawings, the conceptual drawings of this. Everyone of us have said that this is wonderful and we cannot wait to see it and we wanted to succeed. Since that time, again full disclosure I have received numerous emails, numerous phone calls and in person conversations from individuals within the city of Daytona Beach. And the very first thing that was brought up was they turned down our project for almost the same thing. And that being said, being consistent is important! I will go back to what we said. I loved your comment chair, integrity of the grant process. Mr. Kent, following the rules, the shovel ready rule. We have to be consistent! So I'm struggling as well. I want this project, I really truly do, but Mr. Kent you said it too, half of your district is in Daytona as well. And that Jackie Robinson ballpark issue. And they took it, decided to come back and I guess they are in that cycle to come back and return. BRADLEY BURBAUGH: Yes sir. In my conversations with Daytona they would be prepared to come if there was a second cycle this year. So I didn't mean to mix the two but they have similarities? That's what I was asking. Thank you chair. MATT REINHART: Councilman Robbins? DANNY ROBINS: This is for you. A couple years ago, and I can say this because I have been a part of this since you were here, there was a political vote for a piece of property that was on power lines. I vaguely remember the scoring on it but can you explain how that was purchased with a straight face? BRADLEY BURBAUGH: I'm going to do my best… I was still working for UF at the time, I was not a county employee I believe… So it was a combination of funds and I know Clay was involved. There was a portion of the direct County expenditure which this county has the prerogative to do. We do have a historic stabilization process and grant program deadlines with the ECHO process but it is basically an emergency push-up so we find something historical that needs to be saved it can be considered on an emergency basis. And that was the process that was followed as I understand it for the purchase of that property because there was a portion of it that was found to be historical because it contained old King's Highway I believe. DANNY ROBINS: For the City of DeBary, who is most knowledgeable to speak about this right now for it being historical or in the case of an emergency? Is there anything emergency was that will fit the same standards that the chairman and I used about three years ago to vote up on that project? Is anyone able to speak on that? SPEAKER: I don't know. We fully expect to find historic artifacts on this property, but until we are in further development phase, I don't know that we can qualify that. To our best knowledge, there was the property north of us by several hundred feet. I live north of this property and there is a (indiscernible) near this house. So there is a high degree of chance there is historic elements there. To be truthful, I cannot give you one right now that says it is an urgent issue. In reference to the difference between a hardscape plan like Daytona Beach's addition to Jackie Robinson and an environmental property being developed from rural land, there is very different ability to get plans. I know that if you had an addition on your house, you would probably be asked to give plans, because it is a known plot of land, it has been developed, there is infrastructure. I only offer that to distinguish it. But to be honest about the historic, I cannot give you the urgency that was sensed because of imminent development on the other property. I will tell you that if we had not used the ARPA funds, we would have seen that property go for development. There was a developer right behind us, and the uplands there were permeated already with an old PUD for fortysomething homes. All of that would have been gone if we did not act. We ran into one issue with Florida forever, one issue with Volusia forever. We came to the point where we were going to lose the property or we could take the ARPA funds we had to preserve it for everyone. Now, we are trying to make it accessible as quickly as we can. DANNY ROBINS: The reason I say that, to your credit, those same standards you talked about in terms of developmental, that was the main reason we had really voted to acquire that piece of property, even though it wasn't chicken and it wasn't fish. On my opinion, it was on a power line, but there were developmental plans for it and it had some value as listed. So I am trying to find a way where at least we can get to, or I can talk to my colleagues about direct expenditure, like we did, to reserve that integrity and follow the process. The same thing. SPEAKER: Here is what happened with that, we had gotten the blessing of the 30 owners of the property. It was a trust. The realtor had worked with us for two years trying to work it through all the processes. They were at the end of their patients, understandably. They wanted it to go for public good, but they also had economic pressures. And there was, according to the realtor, a developer right behind us, and in fact, he had told me shortly before our vote that the developer was there, so when we voted to buy the property using ARPA funds and taking them from other ARPA eligible products -- projects that we had in the city, in order to preserve this on an emergency basis, at that point I turned to the realtor, the vote was had, we had a unanimous vote and I turned to the realtor and I said, "Lose his number," and he did. DANNY ROBINS: Chairman, quick question, would you be able to work with me or work with counsel if they so desire to apply those same standards that we applied and that we voted for with the (indiscernible) when it came to direct expenditures? Would you be open to supporting that as a possible avenue to maybe get them started in maybe a first phase where we kind of keep them going? Until they get the rest of the paperwork in. Or we don't want to go there with this one? JEFFREY BROWER: I think it is completely different, if we are talking about the loop purchase in Ormond Beach. I don't equate the two. What I think we need, and maybe Mr. Santiago is going to do it, we have three options here. We can vote to approve as is, we can deny it or we could vote to move this to another cycle to give them the time to do it. I don't think that this is a time to change process midstream and debate whether or not the rules should be followed, especially since we required Daytona Beach to follow the rules. Now, we are being asked to set them aside. I want this project to pass by following the rules. DANNY ROBINS: I agree with you, I just want us to be consistent. You know, if it fits a political agenda at a time, I don't want to bend the rules in one thing and then come up with a like situation in the future and bend them again, that is why I am putting all of this kind of on the spot, just to protect integrity in the future. We cannot pick and choose. Like I said before, what is good for the goose, what is good for the gander. I will support whatever direction counsel takes. BRAD BURBAUGH: So the separate program is called the emergency acquisition and stabilization program, which means the threshold is that it is in imminent danger of being lost. In this case, the Ormond loop property was acquired to admit that threshold. In terms of the... Getting money from the committee, who also vetted this project, and the councils portion through the direct County expenditure program, which the referendums... Sorry, the resolution that put the referendum on the pallets says the direct County expenditure can be used for County projects. It doesn't contemplated being used for others. That certainly is a policy decision. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: I think we see the writing on the wall today on this particular topic. I am very supportive. I was there when they did the groundbreaking. When they open to give it to see what the future potential is going to be, and very excited. I think Debarry has been a leader in our county in many areas in creating a vision that we can support. However, I do not want to see a no vote come down on this. I think it is probably more appropriate to temporarily postpone to the October cycle and make sure that our staff lends whatever support they can to make sure that it is ready for the next cycle. JEFFREY BROWER: Is that April or October? DAVID SANTIAGO: I think it is October cycle, didn't you say that? BRAD BURBAUGH: Our annual cycle begins in September with a mandatory meeting. The technical application due in October. We have staff give feedback so the final due is in December and awarded typically in February or March. DAVID SANTIAGO: So it would be more appropriate to say December. BRAD BURBAUGH: That is the annual cycle. DAVID SANTIAGO: I'm talking about the mid cycle. BRAD BURBAUGH: Cycle being proposed by the advisory committee would be next month a mandatory meeting, technical review in June and award in October, I believe. Based on the timeline. I am sorry. DAVID SANTIAGO: So if they can not meet that timeline, it will probably roll over to the next cycle? I want to throw it out to see what the Council thinks on that. Instead of an overt, we can postpone it. JEFFREY BROWER: You are making the motion to move it to the next cycle. DAVID SANTIAGO: Temporarily postponed. JEFFREY BROWER: Temporarily postponed? DAVID SANTIAGO: To the next cycle. JAKE JOHANSSON: We don't have a motion for this. We don't have a midcycle yet. Motion to approve a midcycle Echo... Midcycle assessment to allow anybody for a midcycle. JEFFREY BROWER: That would also include Daytona. JAKE JOHANSSON: Anybody. If people are ready for October and they can come in midcycle, we can work that out for them. Not just for them, but anybody. So midcycle assessment. SPEAKER: Second by Kent. JEFFREY BROWER: The motion is made by Jake Johansson, seconded by Troy Kent. TROY KENT: To create a midcycle. JEFFREY BROWER: To create a midcycle, and not just for Debarry and Jackie Robinson, but anyone that is ready. Discussion? Questions? All in favor? Any posts? TROY KENT: The only hesitation I had was your comment when you said it sounded like stuff was going to have to make sure that it worked. This shouldn't be incumbent... DAVID SANTIAGO: I will clarify that. Mr Chair, I propose to move the newly created midcycle... Just more of a direction staff lending support that's appropriate. JEFFREY BROWER: Motion made by David Santiago, seconded by Troy Kent, which moves Debarry to that cycle. Any questions, debates? Any opposed? That motion also carries, 7-0. That was the end of the applicants, correct? BRAD BURBAUGH: As a point of clarification, we are committed to deliver these projects and help them be successful. The application as it stands now is not... Does not have the requirements, so we would ask them in that cycle to reapply with the new documents or supplement their current application. It will not just be moving the application, because it is deficient right now. Is that ok? JEFFREY BROWER: You are going to work with them and get them across the line. Thank you. Thank you, Carmen and Mayor (unknown name). At 11:28 AM, we are already on item 3. We will give just a few minutes here to change the players in the room. Laura, you are doing this one. Item 3 is ordinance 2024 – 08, chapter 58, article 5, medical provider liens and establishing for certain medical providers and entitlement to liens for certain outstanding charges. SPEAKER: Lara Coleman, assistant county attorney. That is quite a title. Thank you, Mr Chair. Item 3 is ordinance 2024 – 08. This is a medical provider ordinance that has come before you before for some directions. You are familiar with this concept. To give you a quick reminder, the point of this ordinance is to create lien rights for certain medical providers in limited circumstances. Namely, it applies to charitable hospitals, special taxing districts and County EMS. It is not across the board, but specific situations where charitable and not-for-profit interests in that population are served. It only applies when the patient does not pay their bills. This is for services rendered and then the patient leaves. Then they collect some sort of monetary award. The lien doesn't apply to houses, wages or their own insurance, it only applies to monetary judgments, settlements, legal claims. So again, a specific subset of claims we are talking about here. Again, it also only applies when the injuries that necessitated the care were caused by 1/3 party. Generally speaking, we mean automobile accidents. That is almost always the circumstance. You have a memo, the background, it highlighting items in the ordinance. A couple more things to call to your attention. The ordinance does prescribe some limitations in the lien amount itself. It also provides an informal review process if the patient has questions about the lien itself, like the accuracy or the actual amount. It also includes for an arbitrator or judge to reduce the lien amount to make it an equitable share if the lien is not... Recovery is not large enough to cover the lien and the damages. There is also a prevailing party's attorneys fees provision in there. I'm happy to answer any questions you have. Additionally, the Halifax team, Halifax health, is in the room today. They have been with me every step of the way crafting this ordinance and will be more than happy to answer questions or provide thoughts if you would like that. I'm happy to answer any questions you have. Halifax health is in the room today. They have been with me every step of the way while crafting this ordinance and I'm sure they are more than happy to answer any questions or provide any thoughts if you would like that. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Yes and we do have for people who want to speak to this item. Matt Reinhart? MATT REINHART: Just quickly, this is what we visited before correct? SPEAKER: I ran way too fast… Yes sir we came before you and sought direction so you are familiar with this concept. MATT REINHART: Alright I will make a motion to approve. SPEAKER: Seconded. JEFFREY S. BROWER: A motion to approve by Matt Reinhart and seconded by David Santiago. Since no one is up on the board written to speak I will call the members of the public that are here. Tim Steflik? SPEAKER: Good morning. Good morning chair, good morning everyone here. My name is Doctor Tim Steflick. I'm a chiropractor position for the past 12 years in Volusia County and a third-generation resident of Volusia County. My address is in New Smyrna Beach and my practices at Edgewater 315 N. Avenue in Edgewater. In respect of you are time here, we have a group of doctors that came. I have over 30 names on the list here but many of them had to get back to work because we are all trying to provide for our families and take care of our patients. --your. So we just assigned three speakers to speak on behalf of the doctors and offices in the county. I just wanted to briefly speak… So actually anyone who is here please stand up if you are opposing the hospital bill, raise your hand or stand up so everyone can see you. Thank you. So I'm going to speak on the negative impacts that this will have on the patients and the citizens of Volusia County. First of all it will not affect everybody, right? There are three demographics it will not affect, it will not affect low-income individual's because a Medicaid, it will not affect seniors because Medicare and it will not affect workers who have really good health insurance. But there is another demographic that it really will affect and it is those who have highly deductible insurances. I am one of those individuals. I do not have health insurance so no insurance or highly deductible health insurance, this will affect them because when they go to the hospital, the hospital's are already being paid, if it is an auto accident they are paid four times what they would receive for Medicare and 10 times what they would receive for Medicaid. So they are already being paid above and beyond what they would normally receive for these automobile accidents. These individuals like myself are going to be affected because we will not be able to receive post hospital care. If there is a lien and the hospital has billing, doctors will not accept cases like this and work on a lien themselves if they know they will be paid pennies on the dollar because the hospital has the lien. So it will affect individuals like myself and a lot of other individuals in the county. Because of that especially the patients and we are here to serve the patients and our community. That is who we want to help. We want to make sure they have a follow-up care that they need. It's not about the hospitals doing a good job but it is our job to build a backup after they have been injured. So I thank you guys for your time, I appreciate all you do and your service but I would say we are opposed to the hospital bill for that reason. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Leonard Rolmand? SPEAKER: We have three office locations in Volusia County, including our flagship office in Orange County which has been treating and employing County residents in the same location for over 40 years. I will speak briefly on the unintended consequences of the ordinance including an increase in prescription drugs generally and opioid specifically. I bet you think this is a vaguely peer from a hospital lean to ordinance but let me explain. As the doctor touched on, it is basically uninsured and some of the uninsured blue-collar workers who this will hurt the most. The same group of workers makes up a significant number of those who choose chiropractic care after their accidents. If this ordinance passes, they will no longer be able to obtain chiropractic care after their accident because they will not be able to afford it, nor is it feasible for us as providers to treat them for free or for pennies on the dollar. These folks have to work to survive, and if they are suffering from ongoing aches and pains they will have to resort to medications to get through their days because outpatient care will be out of reach. These injured accident victims will have to circle back to the ER or the hospital every time they are in pain from these injuries, which drives up the overall cost of care. While ERs are equipped to handle these life-threatening injuries, they are ill-equipped to administer follow-up care. This opens the door to set medicating with NSAIDs, alcohol or other illicit drugs or for long-term prescription prescribed drugs including muscle relaxers, sleep aids and ultimately opioids and its derivatives. According to a 2022 Florida safety report, Florida has averaged 380,000 accidents per year over the last three years. That includes 644,000 drivers and an untold number of passengers. Our County ranks 10th in the state of 67 counties for the amount of accidents. Needless to say, we see a lot of accident victims every year. As the 10th highest ranking county, this is not a good ordinance! It is not good for independent physician offices or imaging centres, it is not good for the accident victims, and it is not good for your constituency at large. Please vote no on this proposed ordinance. Thank you. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Doctor Lester Carera? SPEAKER: Good morning Brower. I'm a chiropractic physician and I have served this county for the past 18 years. We are located in Daytona Beach Florida, I will speak briefly about us as healthcare professionals. There are only nine counties out of 16 counties that have similar versions of this hospital lean ordinance. This ordinance creates favouritism for certain providers. All you have to do is just read the title of this agenda and I quote, "Establishing for certain medical providers an entitlement". This ordinance is not more than an entitlement. And I know that the hospitals will come back and say, "Oh, this is to support the facilities that are non for profit." But let me just be clear of something here, their CEOs make millions! And in the same name of nonprofit, a nonprofit, their packages exceed... The packages they have for retirement are going to exceed a lot more then what will ever see in our lives. OK? We are not asking for anything other than to keep the playing field equal. Like you said before, if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander, it is good for everybody. The story of all of us, Miss Jane had an accident. Due to an negligent driver, she ended up being transported to the hospital in an ambulance, to later be released and told to see her primary care physician. The hospital exhausted all of her money. We as physicians then come back and have to take care of Miss Jane and not get paid. We are the ones trying to get Miss Jane back to work. This ordinance makes it much harder for us to be able to help. Please vote no for this ordinance. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Tom Caldwell? Is Tom here? SPEAKER: I'm a lawyer in town, I've been in Daytona Beach for 30 years. And I'm not… I'm sympathetic to Halifax's cause. I understand their mission in this community was up my grandfather died there in 1948, I was born there in 1966. My grandmother died in 2001 and my mother in 2021. So I understand their mission here. But this lien is actually redundant. There is a mechanism already underplays under our ethical standards. It is actually 5/1.1 in our Florida ethical guide. Lawyers cannot willy-nilly decide to carve up where the money goes. If there is a dispute, we have an ethical obligation to actually interplay that money. We have a lot of cases where there is not enough coverage to make the person whole. When that is the case we just cannot carve up the money. Halifax I think should know that. One other thing I do want to point out, and this is… I do not want to cast dispersions, but obviously Halifax should not have anybody doing their bidding on the board. This public policy should, when we pass ordinances, they should be rooted in sound public policy. We know that. It should be for the public good. I'm not an ethics lawyer, I'm a trial lawyer, but we do know that Councilman Santiago was paid from his affidavit, at least in 2022 which was the last affidavit that was filed, about $120,000 from a law firm called Culloden Past or Fast, pardon me. We also know Culloden Fast has represented Halifax in the past and still does. They are out of Sunrise Florida, not sure why that's the case. But it is interesting anyway to think about. Now again, I understand that people go into consulting work after their representatives, which he was. But it does make an interesting note. Again these ordinances should be rooted in sound public policy. So they should not be a feather in someone's consulting. I hope you will consider this. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Thank you. Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: I pressed my button before when he was caught up so I figure I have more to say. The ordinance is not just a bill. It allows for our Eve act, your event program that is tax funded to collect money back for services they have provided. --before it was brought up. What happens is there are settlements in these cases and often they neglect paying you your tax funded EVAC back. I was not planning on being this aggressive but I will turn up, and goes to the building have on I04 and we know what most of those billboards look like, they're not about social services or helping people, they are about profit for others. It allows us to collect our money back and certain nonprofits that were not mentioned. I'm not even sure if I should address the comments, you know? Halifax is here if they want to address that. I will just say they are fabricated and I stand behind my word. DON DEMPSEY: Can I ask Attorney Caldwell to come up here? I have been practicing law. I used to do defense for State Farm and I have stood in your shoes. I just do blue-collar law now, criminal and family. Maybe you can give me some CLE on this. Back when I was doing plaintiff work, the way a case would unfold, correct me if I'm wrong, the lady is in a car wreck, she goes to the hospital. She is told to see her general treating physician. They sent her off for chiropractic care. All of this time, she is getting treatment, treatment. At the same time, she is trying to settle with her insurance company. Let's just say there is $100,000 in available insurance, is what you are saying that if the hospital were to have a lien, they would have first dibs on 100% of that $100,000. SPEAKER: That is correct. DON DEMPSEY: Let's say you go to the ER, you are in ICU for couple days and everybody takes care of you. Thank God, you make it. Then you are going to the chiropractors and aftercare. If the hospital says, "Our bill is $100,000 and the coverage is $100,000." They take all of it. Correct? SPEAKER: That is correct. DON DEMPSEY: And what is left for these guys continuing to treat this lady to get her back to health, there is nothing for them to get paid from. Correct? SPEAKER: Zero. Absent health insurance that they would take, there is zero. And also, under the PIP statute, and I'm not anti-Halifax. I like Halifax. The one time I had a health issue I was taken to Halifax. I know the CEO. Friends with him. I like Halifax. There is already specialized treatment under the PIP statute that favors hospitals. I can see Mr. Santiago smirking, but it is already there. DON DEMPSEY: And I remember, ok, so let's say it takes six months to settle up the insurance claim, and so you have all these injuries and it takes six months to get the... Everything has to get negotiated. Finally, at the end of the day, there is $100,000. Is it part of your job as the plaintiff attorney, you have to ensure that everybody over the six month recovery program gets paid fairly. Is that right? SPEAKER: There is an ethical obligation. It is 5 – 1.1 E. Not only these providers, but the hospital. DON DEMPSEY: I have negotiated medical liens in the past. Isn't it fair that you call the hospital and we say, "We know our client owes you $100,000, but she is not getting enough to cover her bill. Will you accept $40,000?" And then you call the chiropractor and we say, "We know your bill is $20,000, but will you accept $1000." And down the line. If this lien is imposed, the hospital gets to take their $100,000 and leave subsequent providers with nothing. SPEAKER: That is correct, including the injured plaintiff, who by the way, did not ask to be in the situation. They are not a well oiled lobby. It hasn't happened to most of them yet. DON DEMPSEY: Nothing has changed in the last 30 years. This is why I'm against this. I feel the same way about Halifax, because they save lives initially. But these are the guys that restore people back to health. And if we just let Halifax take the lion's share of whatever they decide their bill is, there is nothing to negotiate anymore, right? Because they have the lien. So they have nothing to negotiate. Be fair to everybody in the recovery process, I think we have to turn this down so that everybody has a fair shake. Whatever that amount of available insurance is, they should already have access to it. SPEAKER: Nothing strikes fear into the heart of a lawyer than getting a letter from the bar. Two guys, that is why I am against this. It is not fair to everybody involved in the recovery process. This only favors the initial provider of treatment. We have got to take care of the guys who deal with the people for a much longer basis over a longer length of time. That is why I am strongly against it. Nothing against Halifax. JEFFREY BROWER: Before I call on the other councilmembers, Laura Coleman... I sense that you... You are good? Vice Chair Kent. TROY KENT: Attorney Coleman and Dyer, is everything that Councilman Dempsey... And I apologize, what is the attorney's name? Caldwell. Was everything just said accurate? SPEAKER: There is a provision, and I think I went over to my slide. There is a provision that allows for an equitable reduction in the lien amount by a judge, by arbitration proceeding or settlement of the parties. So the exact same discussion referenced where those numbers can shift as the recovery number is established, that still happens. And actually, this ordinance allows for... It preserves the ability of a judge to do that as well if it is a judgment itself as opposed to a settlement. So the ability of that number... If the total number collected by the patient is not enough to cover everybody's claims and their own damages, then that lien number will be reduced or can be reduced if the judge finds it appropriate as well. TROY KENT: Will that automatically go to a judge? My reason behind the question – my parents are elderly and I think about my grandmother when she was alive. If she got a bill, she paid it. That is why, I believe, predatory... Sometimes companies send bills to these individuals and they pay it. Grandma, you have insurance. You shouldn't have paid that. And the insurance company says, "We will not give you this money back. That's not how this works." So now you're saying that a judge can do that. Does that automatically go to a judge and these individuals are left out of it? SPEAKER: I think you are talking about a couple different scenarios at once. To be clear, the lien amount is restricted in what it can be. In a case where someone is insured, it has to be contracted insurance, basically. Where someone is not insured, it has to be a reasonable amount for fees. That reasonableness can be challenged in law. As far as whether it goes automatically to a judge, of course not. There is not an automatic court proceeding every time someone is injured. But the same process spoken about before where there is a negotiation with the plaintiff's attorney involved, that can continue to happen. Keep in mind as well, this is a process, it only really applies when there is 1/3 party who has caused this injury. Again, it is applicable. When another insurance company, another party becomes involved. So it is not simply that if you go to hospital and do not pay your bill, this attaches. TROY KENT: I took my first breath at Halifax hospital, my son did as well. I have a love for the place for those reasons alone. With a yes or no, did everything Don Dempsey say and attorney Caldwell say, was that accurate? SPEAKER: The ordinance allows for equitable reduction. So no, sir, I don't believe that Halifax would take all of the limited recovery amount. TROY KENT: I need more, and I will tell you why. The reason I love this is because you come in with the material, thinking one thing, you listen to your colleague and start thinking something else. I am not saying the gentleman behind you are experts, but they are shaking their heads no. I look forward to your comments, gentlemen. SPEAKER: I am certain if you would like to speak to Halifax as to how that operates, I'm sure they would be happy to talk about that as well. SPEAKER: The language she is referring to is on three – seven, 58 – 132 of the ordinance. SPEAKER: Correct, and equitable share. The lien amount may be reduced to an equitable share of limited recovery. It goes on from there. JEFFREY BROWER: Ok. Councilman Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: We have talked a lot about equity, I guess. I heard the term. But Laura, real quick, this usually involves 1/3 party and usually an attorney, yes? SPEAKER: Yes sir. That is fair. JAKE JOHANSSON: We are talking about judgments where a lot of money is put out, either by the insurance company or by the attorney. Who gets a percentage of that, and then leaves the person who got hurt to fend for themselves with $400,000, which is on the billboard. That $400,000 doesn't go far enough, is what we are saying. And by the way, I have not been addicted to opioids, but I have been addicted to chiropractors, thank you very much. It's a hard track to get away from. How often do attorneys go, "I feel sorry for you. I would like to give back some of that money to help pay the chiropractor fee." Or do they walk away? Here, we are talking about equity, but at the end of the day, it is the attorneys that are already smiling. I'm sorry, Don. I'm so sorry. They are on those billboards smiling just like the other person. The awardee is getting $400,000. My thought is... I don't think you can always resolve this with equitable money, unless we sue for more and get more, and then pay more. I don't know how to resolve this. The other thing that got brought up is Ms. Debbie didn't ask for this. In Volusia County, we all know we cannot inshore for all risks. Everyone has flood insurance. Everyone's got wind insurance and didn't get new roofs. There is always stipulations for this. I don't know if it is our responsibility. We can work towards it, we can work together, but I don't know if we can make everybody hold. If you do select, you are not getting it back. I want to make as many people whole as I can, and I believe that our nonprofit hospitals, I wasn't born anywhere around here, but they work hard to make this work and they are just looking for ways that Jimmy, who just made a couple million dollars off some insurance company doesn't run away with $8 million while some nonprofit sits here losing money or having to not get better services because they have to pay that bill out of their pocket. So I am kind of torn here. I think it is important that... Like Mr. Kent said, we pay our bills. So thank you. So I think it's important like Mr. Kent said that we pay our bills. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: Is our goal to make everyone equitable? I do not think that is the case. Don't forget that our EVAC would benefit from this and so this is where the motive came from. I want to ask if Halifax is willing to answer your question? If you are familiar with the ordinance, and I hope you are that is being proposed here, can you explain for my friend Troy and others here on how that peace would play out and some of the dialogue they have had? JEFFREY S. BROWER: Please introduce yourself. SPEAKER: Hi I'm Kelly Collatag. I've been working since 2021. We also collaborated with plaintiff attorneys like Josh Wegner in the past year or two. The goal was to keep things status quo. Made a special order in Florida for liens from 2003 to 2016 or so. So we have all worked under the lien environment and it works. It is mostly done in negotiations that we have talked about. There is someone at our hospital that does is all they want the steps she negotiates with lawyers and other providers both on and once we were able to stop filing liens, our last year finally leans at the hospital was 2016. We filed about 2300 cases. We have not been able to file liens since but we still negotiate with attorneys that follow ethical rules. There are about a thousand or so that we can make it with but we believe there are two dozen claims a year that we are not at the table. And the point of this lien for us is to have a piece of paper that gets us to the table to have those negotiations. This is not about taking from other providers. We get that we are all in this business of getting people out of the hospital and back on their feet. We are trying to just continue the status quo but come to the table on what we believe to be around 2000 claims per year that we are missing out on. So what we are asking us to let us come to the table, let us continue this process we have had in place since 1953 where we do negotiate, we go down the line and work with the attorneys. We settle for far less than we have spent in costs for taking care of that patient. But it allows us to recover something and that allows us to continue the service. JEFFREY S. BROWER: So you are not looking for 100%? SPEAKER: No sir. DAVID SANTIAGO: Have had ever done Halifax work that I'm aware of? SPEAKER: No. DAVID SANTIAGO: I was contemplating giving credibility because it is quite the opposite. My time in the legislature, I did more work with chiropractors and trial lawyers so he obviously did not do his proper research. That is it for me now Mr. chair. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Councilman Robbins? DANNY ROBINS: Mrs. Coleman, our attorney. In some of the language Miss Coleman, it said, about provisions is provisions a guarantee? History? I'm not entirely sure what you are asking about provisions? DANNY ROBINS: Like provisions for unit 4. There is always a flexibility, like there is a non-certain amount. SPEAKER: When I say provision I mean there is a portion of the ordinance that deals with that? That's all in talking about. Like Mike had mentioned 58 – 132. It is a permissive lawsuit. If there is a negotiation in a settlement that is reached and then there could be a reduction. It is necessary to have that information in there because the reduction and the lien amount cannot occur in a court, not in a settlement, but in a court you cannot actually change the numbers without that being a part of the ordinance if there is an ordinance that permits the lien so it is an important provision to have. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you. And what makes me uneasy about this, I mean I think Halifax is a great partner but there are certain keywords in here: "May be reduced". That's not certain. I can see for our private sector that is concerning because now they are on the hook for certain things. And this is big dollars, you know? I do not expect anyone to work for free including Halifax, I don't want anyone working for free! Is there a way we can tailor this little bit better where more people are at the table to look at the language on this? I don't know if this is something we can get with our state reps on, or we can look at a statuette where there are more protections within the existing statuette. Or if there is a better way to do this where everybody like Mr. Dempsey said, it is more equal. If that power is abused, there is no guarantee that they have to work with these folks. There is no guarantee. Second, is it true, I've heard some comments earlier 7-9, out of 67 counties adopted that. Is that accurate? Do we know? Speak mac I don't have the current numbers with me today but it is a small portion. I think Ashlee Canty is really the leader in this ordinance style of when they adopted theirs. -- SPEAKER: Just to be clear, we did have a special law in Volusia for years, since 1953. In 2012 there was a court ruling that said you know what? You cannot actually legislate this and put it in a special law. You can have it in an ordinance but you cannot put it in a special law. So we still have the law on the books. The special law still exists but that court case really called in the ability to question to use that any longer. So the idea was this ordinance would put back into place the paradigm that already existed when the law was usable but to do it in a way that the courts believe is constitutionally important. DANNY ROBINS: Why do you think there would be such a low number of counties that adopted this and thought it was kosher? SPEAKER: I mean I think you just depends on how counties want to proceed but I would say the court case that changed the specialized loss was in 2012. So it has only been about 12 years since that happened and sometimes ordinances do take a while to percolate. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you for that. Can we cherry speak to the gentleman doctor that came up first? I'm sorry sir I forgot your name. SPEAKER: It is Doctor Tim Seflik. DANNY ROBINS: To hear your perspective, is there a way on a local level we can ensure that our EVAC and tax dollars are recovered? So that way we can ensure you guys are not working for free and also so that Halifax has… Can we all come together on this to see if there is a guarantee that can make all of us whole? I mean is that even hospital? I'm not an expert on this, I'm just asking for such SPEAKER: I think that is possible. Maybe you guys see this a lot? Maybe not. I don't know it is your job, you guys have tough decisions when it comes to that kind of stuff. Can we come to a middle ground I guess is the question? I think it is there! I think it's there already. They are getting paid, you know the system is working how it is supposed to work and they are already getting the settlements when there is a settlement with an attorney. Right? They are already in that discussion. And all this does is make sure the language that is really concerning Ismay. So what if they decide not to? What if they decide to take all of the payment and there is nothing left for the patient or for us? You know? It is just very concerning as far as that goes. How it's working now I don't see there being necessarily a change as well as 67 other counties in Florida. Like there are a very small minority that are doing that so there is concern for us. To make sure that the patients will have care and to make sure we can pay staff to help these people. Why is there a need for a change if it is already working? And she already said that, I'm not sure the CFO or CLO's name but for the majority it is working fine. So yeah that is my opinion. JEFFREY-- DANNY ROBINS: Council I'm having a tough time with this to be honest with you. I do not know what the right answers. I feel like any decision may be the wrong decision so I do not have an answer right now. SPEAKER: I don't think I understood your questions until I heard the follow-ups. Now I understand your question. Just to be clear, the may we have been talking about in the reduction part of the ordinance will apply to a judge choosing if they did or did not want to change the lien amount, or in an arbitrator proceeding or in an agreement by the parties. They could agree to reduce it, they do not have to, we cannot make parties decide what they will do together and we do not tell a judge they absolutely have to redo something. So that is where the "may" comes in. DANNY ROBINS: Mrs.Coleman are we allowed to put a threshold for this ordinance? Could it be 30%? 40% SPEAKER: The number actually in itself has to be for outstanding charges, they cannot just pick a number. It is harder to pin that number down because there is not a standard but it has to be reasonable and the Reasonableness can be challenged in a myriad of ways. DANNY ROBINS: Alright thank you. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Councilman Dempsey? DON DEMPSEY: (Laughs) I'd like to get him back up here! I'd like to make him work for his money, I'm jealous of plaintiff's lawyers. Mr. Johansson thinks all of them live in big multimillion dollar homes with yachts and stuff. How often do you cut fees when settling a case? SPEAKER: Almost every single time. DON DEMPSEY: Isn't it true that you do not get paid until the hospital and everyone else, then you get your cut? SPEAKER: Well we actually get our cut off the top. We do not settle the case until we negotiated all the bills. And I recognize some plaintiff lawyers have probably brought us to this state because we have not complied ethically, they have just been cutting out the hospital and that is ethically impermissible. And so I recognize some of the plaintiffs probably brought us here. But I can name everyone at Halifax in the legal department. There is Gail, Ann, Stacy that I work with almost on an annual basis. They get the bill and negotiated quickly. Alex has not fallen down since 2012 one The Janes versus Mercury decision came out, when they ruled the special act was unconstitutional. But he also wrote he can do it by special ordinance and that was a Supreme Court case. DON DEMPSEY: And what percentage of your cases would you say have no court intervention whatsoever? SPEAKER: The vast majority of these lean cases… And I will add if we challenge the lean, that is another lawsuit. Adding another complexity to the situation. DON DEMPSEY: Right. SPEAKER: With the cost associated with that. DON DEMPSEY: Is it fair to say that your typical injury case involves the accident, the hospital trading, the context and follow-up providers that treat the person, you as the plaintiff's attorney that is negotiating you call the hospital and have finally worked with the adjuster from the insurance company. You work out a settling amount. Sometimes the posse for insurance since 1000. Then you call these guys up in the hospital and say your client is settling for a lot less than what you are entitled to, will you settle for what you are entitled to? And you want everyone to pull through? SPEAKER: I'm not sure which councilmember it was but we do not take the fee and leave our client to address the medical bills. Once we have notice of a bill we have to negotiate those bills. Because the third party, the medical provider has an interest in the case, pursuant again five – 1.1. So again we have to take that into account. DON DEMPSEY: So you negotiate with the adjuster with the policy limit amounts and you can negotiate the amount. Then you negotiate with hospital and after providers. Then is it fair to say that you just reach an agreement, signed the settlement for the insurance company and distribute money to the medical providers, the hospital and then yourself and then it's done? SPEAKER: That is accurate. The settlement includes where every penny is going. That is on the settlement statement including to the providers. DON DEMPSEY: The majority of cases do not involve court intervention? SPEAKER: We don't expect them to roll over, so more more cases are being filed on. DON DEMPSEY: So if one provider had all the goods, if they had all the money, $100,000 right here and they say, "We might give this doctor $20. Here is $20 for you, we are keeping the rest." Then you have to go to court? SPEAKER: We have to file a lawsuit. Typically, when entities are empowered, when any entity is empowered, they are not going to say... I would say let's arbitrated. We know that creates another hurdle. We have to talk to the client. Again, there is an added complexity here with this lien statute. DON DEMPSEY: That is what this ordinance is proposing. If you don't like it, sue us? How often do you think that will be feasible? The courts are clogged up now as it is, right? SPEAKER: That is accurate. This bill would potentially add... We will have to see how it plays out, but it would potentially add more litigation. Right now, as long is everybody is reasonable, it works under our current system. DON DEMPSEY: It worked 30 years ago for me. Is it still working? SPEAKER: It is still working. Lawyers have to ethically abide by their guidelines. Again, I was called yesterday to do this, we have to abide by ethical guidelines. As long as we do that, it works. DON DEMPSEY: Thank you, Mr. Caldwell. One of few doctors, you are a chiropractor, is that right? I forgot your name. SPEAKER: Doctor Lester Carrero. DON DEMPSEY: We heard what an important part chiropractors play in aftercare. Have you ever received a call from an attorney like Mr. Caldwell asking you to cut fee rates because of a limited settlement account -- amount? SPEAKER: Every day. DON DEMPSEY: How often do you not get paid at all? How often do you have to cut your fee? SPEAKER: I have my billing specialist here with me and she is always fighting with me saying we are almost a non-prophet because we are almost taking no money whatsoever. DON DEMPSEY: Would this apply to others? They have cut fees routinely? SPEAKER: We sometimes don't get any pay at all. DON DEMPSEY: And you are on the same footing as the hospital right now? SPEAKER: If the language would include us, I would be fine with it. No problem. But it is exclusive and not inclusive. That is the problem. If it would include us, I have no problem. No problem at all. But just keep in mind that we are also, as chiropractors, we also have medical doctors and neurologists around here. Also imaging centers. We are not only chiropractors. We are chiropractors speaking now. My clinic has medical doctors, imaging centers, laboratories. I'm here speaking on behalf of everybody else, not only chiropractors. DON DEMPSEY: And do you feel the way the system is now at least works fairly? SPEAKER: Solid. DON DEMPSEY: If it's not broke don't fix it? SPEAKER: If it's not broken, why fix it? JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: Don, I love you but that seemed like a commercial. I think the same questions should be asked of the other side. EVAC, how much are you writing off? Halifax, how often are you cutting your bills. The question is valid on both sides. I hate to put you on the spot, but I have a question for Halifax. In the beginning, somebody spoke and said this is redundant. How is this not redundant or redundant? This ordinance. SPEAKER: I am not sure redundant would be the word I would use. The way this lien is drafted is to keep the status quote, the negotiations, work it out with everybody. What this does for Halifax is they have two thirds of cases where we are not at the table, not in the inclusive circle, it allows us to get in the conversation. DAVID SANTIAGO: It is being described that you are the 800 pound gorilla in these negotiations. SPEAKER: We have intentionally added language to address the problem everybody is having. The lien would be reduced. A fair and equitable share. When there is not enough money to go around, it would be reduced to fair amount, so all the people, everybody that has cared, chiropractors, that is all on the table with the attorney and then one by one we all take a lesser amount. The goal is proportionately. Gail and Stacy have been with us forever. That is what they do, it works. It works really well for the ones where we are at the table. The problem I am having is that for about two thirds of the cases that happen in Volusia County where we care for that patient, we are not at the table. DAVID SANTIAGO: The ethical trial lawyers are the ones that come and negotiate. SPEAKER: They are and they do and that's wonderful. But there is a whole bucket they are not dealing with. There are groups that represents patients and accidents. They call us and ask if there was a lien on the books. DAVID SANTIAGO: This ordinance says that you have to EVAC and Halifax has to be at the table to negotiate the fair share? SPEAKER: You need to include Halifax in the negotiations. DAVID SANTIAGO: It forces them to come to the table. Not to be repetitive, but are there assurances in this ordinance that do not allow you to say, "I want 100%." SPEAKER: Yes, sir. There are a lot of ways a patient and his/her attorney can address the amount of the lien, the amount of the charges, the reasonableness. There is a review we are happy to go over in case we have done something else. To Mr. Caldwell's point, we also do not want to go to litigation for this. In my five years, I have received one complaint for equitable distribution. We have 100,000 bills per year. We do not litigate. We accept a limited rate because we understand there is a limited bucket and everybody should get paid. The patient should get paid. We have the patient, attorney providers and us. DAVID SANTIAGO: In the first one third that are negotiated, are they being shortchanged? SPEAKER: They say the system is broken. DAVID SANTIAGO: If it is not broken for the first third. SPEAKER: We just want to come to the table. DAVID SANTIAGO: Final question, I think, for point of clarification. Is it a false statement to say that you are at the drivers table to take the entire money and EVAC? SPEAKER: Yes. DAVID SANTIAGO: It clarifies fair share. SPEAKER: Correct. It clarifies fair and equitable share. DAVID SANTIAGO: Therein lies the word. There are experts that know how to read these things. They will analyze it, know how to work with it, and our proposed ordinance says "Fresh air." I am the guy to often figure out a way to make things more palatable. I am open to see if we can find additional language. I think Danny was going there. I am open to finding additional language that can clarify that, if that makes sense? I think it is already there. I have seen these arguments in the past. If the Council feels let maybe we can clarify that more, or tried to left up to give the Council more comfort, I am open to that. Is there a way? SPEAKER: We are happy to take it back and see if we can come up with alternative language. I think the language of the moment allows an arbitrator to figure out what the bucket of money looks like and who has claims and for what and how much to make that determination themselves. If we get more detailed, it makes it more detailed, but I don't know that it makes it more equitable. We can come up with alternative language of counsel would like us to. DAVID SANTIAGO: It is enough for me because I get how the process works. Not to disparage any of my colleagues. I do not mean to do that. But I am open to it if it brings comfort to some of my colleagues for clarity to ensure that it is a fair and equitable process. That will often be determined by a judge, possibly. If the parties cannot agree behind the scenes. And most cases do not go to court. If the parties cannot agree behind the scenes, which seems like the first third of these cases, it has been happening for years. Why can't it happen for the other two? This ordinance puts the other two thirds on notice that you have to talk to Halifax if there are pending bills. But the ordinance forces them to the table. JEFFREY BROWER: Laura? How does this benefit EVAC? SPEAKER: It provides the same claim that it would for any of our operating hospitals. It is another way to get to the table. I know we have folks in EMS billing that could probably give you the numbers. But we write off quite a bit as well. We will have to see how we implement it as County. It will cost staff time and effort if we determine it is appropriate to start filing these liens, but to have them is a claim. We will be in the same position if the other entities are able to do this. I think it is important to keep that in mind as well when we talk about inclusive or exclusive, who you are looking at. County, EMS, not for profits that the data and special units of local government. These are chargeable integers. Or county government itself. And we are not out to make a profit on EMS. JEFFREY BROWER: So when someone compay, this will allow us to be part of this lien, if they get a settlement from the court, then we can get a piece? Who determines how much of a piece we get? SPEAKER: We have the same records that anyone else has. We can reach out to attorneys and asked to be part of negotiations. Realistically, that does not get as far and most of the time, event bills are probably below the threshold... I shouldn't speak to the. The numbers might not justify seeking legal resource. So the lien gives us an option that we do not have now to be part of those negotiations. As far as who determines what that is, the lien amount is the charge, so the exact same charge that we send as a bill is the lien amount, it doesn't get higher in this case, it is just lien for that build amount. JEFFREY BROWER: I think Mr. Santiago is right that we need to tighten this up. This is the second or third time that it has been here. I would like to get it settled. One more question for Halifax. It was confusing as he spoke. I thought all the doctors said that the system is fine, don't mess with it. I thought that you had said you are negotiating now, you don't take 100%, you were at the table and then you said very clearly you are not at the table. How is that? We in the process work as explained for the group that found it to be their ethical… JEFFREY S. BROWER: For Mrs. (Unknown Name)? SPEAKER: Yes. We believe there is 1500-2000 accidents for insurance happening not at the table because they do not have to talk to us because there is no lien law or ordinance on the books anymore. And so we are excluded from what we believe to be 1500 to 2000 discussions a year in negotiations. So it's working as we wanted to work for the people that are talking to us. And the goal of this lien is to then have it work in the same way but to be at the table for those other 1500-2000 accidents we think are happening in the county. Does that clarify? JEFFREY S. BROWER: Absolutely. Councilman Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: Sorry about that. Just… I come from a weird background so I will ask questions that everyone thinks, "I can't believe he's asking that!" Take a third party, this happened to me because somebody else screwed up, somebody gets sick and they come to some hospital and incur some bills. They then have some clinical responsibilities at the end and they have to go for a couple months. If their insurance does not pay for all of that, how does that get paid for? SPEAKER: It is usually written off. JAKE JOHANSSON: It is usually written off. And then how does… Even if the folks can afford it… SPEAKER: Sometimes we try to go to the location… JAKE JOHANSSON: Because of I go to the hospital and stopping my bills… SPEAKER: (indiscernible) JAKE JOHANSSON: Audit. Then they go for chiropractic or some other thing and to their insurance does not pay for that either after a certain amount of time but they still get recommendations to do it. -- Got it. How do they pay for that? Is it out of their pocket as well? SPEAKER: I believe so. JAKE JOHANSSON: That is the way that I know it when I get occupational therapy or physical therapy or something. What makes it different, the obligation to pay? If I go to Halifax and my insurance does not cover or I have a deductible and it is catastrophic I have to pay that. And I know that, based on when I say no? Give me the high deductible because I want to put that money toward my boat instead of our insurance. What is the difference in that obligation to pay? The only difference I can see is I have a pile of money from some other insurance company and I need to use it to pay. And I as the recipient of that money, I would think my attorney would say, "Look I cannot pay", in your case for Halifax and in your case where the chiropractors and in their case the physical therapy. I have $2000 worth of bills. Can we get together with these people? Because I do not want a bad credit rating. Is that not how it happens? SPEAKER: That is how I believe it happens. JAKE JOHANSSON: I guess I have a problem with when someone hands me a check, which in my case nothing came from 1/3 party and I did not get a check. Now I have a check. Why don't I have been obligated to come to the table with my creditors and pay that bill? I speculate it is more than what you're getting when they come to the table. I think it is the person with the monies responsibility, whether they are represented by an attorney or not, to come to these creditors with the money insured. They did not get pain and suffering, they got money from medical which they ought to turn over to the medicine people. And the healers. SPEAKER: I agree with you and this lien requires that to take place. JAKE JOHANSSON: Right. Got it. OK. I'm smart. Thank you. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Councilman Dempsey? DON DEMPSEY: If you could stay put for one minute? I'm sorry. This is something we have all experienced, or maybe just me. If I go to the hospital and I pay cash, I pay one amount for an X-ray but if they bill it to the insurance company it is five times more that my insurance company is paying for this tax rate than I am paying for cash. Does that happen? Not necessarily five times but when I see my insurance statement come out, I can see an ambulance ride was $30,000, I could have called a cab and got it is very, good… But the same service can cost two different amounts. If I came in with no insurance and I got my X-ray, but often if my insurance calmly pays for the insurance family will often be billed a lot more than what I would be billed paying out-of-pocket right? SPEAKER: It could be. DON DEMPSEY: So you guys have all the rights to it and you will say that is $1000 for that X-ray and that is $30,000 for that ambulance ride. You heard me, right? (Laughs) so you are applying liens at these inflated rates because you charge insurance companies much more than mom and pops who come in. You guys want to have priority and dominion over all that, over these guys, and you are only going to pay them what is left? Whatever you feel like. Here's a little bit for you, you, here's a little for you, we are keeping the rest or sue us. That is pretty much what you are proposing. SPEAKER: I think that puts a lot of nefarious behaviour on us. We added the word "Reasonable to charges" To make sure that the lien is a reasonable amount. The second part is it is very clear in the lien language that by agreement of the lien holder and all interested parties, there is a fair and equitable share reduction when there is not enough money to go around. I was working that you agree with the old saying that possession is the law and who has got it will keep it? Have you ever heard that in the legal arena? Spring right now and I have been doing this for a long time. DON DEMPSEY: you have heard they are duty-bound, for anyone in proceedings… You have attorney Caldwell up there and you say that he calls your office all the time to settle his cases with y'all. SPEAKER: He says he calls Gail and Stacy in our office, yes. DON DEMPSEY: Are you saying there are bad lawyers out there who do not call your claim? SPEAKER: I do not like to call out lawyers but there is a group of lawyers for our cases that are not called. DON DEMPSEY: Do you believe with Caldwell that they have an ethical duty? SPEAKER: I would have to read the section he is citing. But there is no way that we can check the cases and cite them. DON DEMPSEY: But before you were saying numbers, how did you get the number? SPEAKER: (indiscernible) DON DEMPSEY: Did you call any of the lawyers and ask where your money is? SPEAKER: Back in 2016 we were talking to them. We were not able to file a lien siding is about 2500-3000 liens and I believe we talked to 4000 lawyers a year, so there is a big bunch that talks to us and we are trying to get to the group that is not. DON DEMPSEY: Did you file a bar complaint for those lawyers that did not fulfil their obligation to contact all the people who are owed money? SPEAKER: No it is impossible to know who they are and what patients they represent. DON DEMPSEY: Do you not know any of the lawyers involved? SPEAKER: No sir. This was a law since 1953. We wanted to get it back to status quo. DON DEMPSEY: You're staying to get 2500 and see me to get the rest. What if you do get 2500 cases and you decide to sue them? Why should illness be on the plaintiff or the healthcare providers? Why is the onus on them to hire a lawyer and bring a lawsuit? Why is it that you guys cannot file a lawsuit? Why can't you guys do to get your fair share? SPEAKER: with all due respect we have had one complaint in the past five years. We are trying to get partial payment for some of the services we provide and renegotiate to make sure everyone at the table gets a portion. DON DEMPSEY: and that is what is already happening though, correct? Because basically what we're doing here is tort reform at a county level. And as Mr. Santiago said, he dealt with us in Tallahassee. That's great, deal with it in Tallahassee. What have you guys done to fix this through the Governor and our representatives up in Tallahassee? SPEAKER: when the actual case came out, and made it very clear that special would not work and it had to be county ordinance that that is the only reason we are here for DON DEMPSEY: Have you tried to get legislature to change that? SPEAKER: I have not. Because until today I found you all to be supportive of this so I did not recognize there to be particular issues was up we have been in front of you annually for the past three years or so. DON DEMPSEY: Please I do not mean to disrespect you or anything like that. I love Halifax! My son was born there too. Everyone I think is equal in the chain of recovery for a patient, these guys as well as these guys. And I do not think one person should have superiority over getting paid over the rest. I think should be divvied up equally and fairly and I do not think there is a problem with the way it is now so I just feel bad for these guys potentially going unpaid and you guys having far superior bargaining power. That's all. SPEAKER: The way I understand it our lien is not like a priority lien, so if there are other liens they are all on the table to negotiate. DON DEMPSEY: Yes but they do not get the same… What this gentleman said was make it apply to everybody and if it applied to everybody it would be fair. So why can't we apply this to everybody and not just a hospital? SPEAKER: Are not opposed to everyone getting their fair share. This lien is just to get to the table cases that we are not. --We are not opposed DON DEMPSEY: OK. I apologize, I did not mean to come across as rude or sound harsh. JEFFREY S. BROWER: Are you done? DAVID SANTIAGO: There is some work that can be done on this to clear up some concerns and make more members comfortable with staff. Mr. chair I'm of that we table this item and bring it back to us. SPEAKER: Hi! I'm the one to make the motion, and you seconded it. I'm open to amending the motion. Jeff Mikell guy so you are removing your motion? MATT REINHART: Yes sir. And I moved to table it until we get anguish that we all agree with because that seems the way we needed to agree to it. (Multiple speakers)(indiscernible) JEFFREY S. BROWER: Alright tabled for a time uncertain to bring it back. That motion is by Matt Reinhart and it is seconded still by David Santiago. Jake Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: The possibility that we need to find out if we can bring everybody to the table, not just the hospitals, nonprofit hospitals. Is that right? Kelly said she was amenable to that. Somebody appears said why can't we bring everybody? I have four chiropractors shaking their head up and down. That would be one of the things to consider, including EMS. The other thing I heard is that in Halifax's opinion, everything is working good for approximately one third of the cases based on her 2016 data, and there is possibly two thirds out there that are not coming to the table. So if we make a local ordinance, how are we going to get those people, some that are in town, some people we don't know from out of town to the table and try not to exclude anybody from this. I think the ordinance has that we already try to work to get a conclusion, then we arbitrate, and then we go to court. We try to ratchet it up as it goes. I don't know how to put that in a motion, so I decided over the loudspeaker so you guys can gather it up later. Does anybody oppose that? JEFFREY BROWER: Rustic it all in. He has given the thumbs up. I think you made your points clear. We have a motion on the floor to table this to a time so that Russ and legal staff can work on all those questions. All in favor say I? Any opposed? That motion carries 7-0. We have a hard stop at 12:50 PM. It's 12:47 PM. So we will take a lunch break and come back at 1:45 PM. (Break until 1:45 PM) (Music plays) SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in 10 minutes. (Music plays) SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in five minutes. (Music plays) SPEAKER: Welcome to the Volusia County Council meeting. The meeting will begin in two minutes. (Music plays) (Multiple speakers) JEFFREY S BROWER: We will get started in 60 seconds. We will resume the meeting at 1:46 PM. Before we hear from you, I have a little order of business here that we need to take care of. Item 8, the expert witness could not remain. So I would like to hear a motion to have this item pulled. Actually, just reassigned to a date certain April 16. And at a time certain, 4:30 PM. DAVID SANTIAGO: So moved. JEFFREY S BROWER: That motion is made by David Santiago. JAKE JOHANSSON: Have we moved to this once already? JEFFREY S BROWER: The key witness to provide relevant information is unable to attend. JAKE JOHANSSON: So we are going to keep kicking the can? Where are we going to eventually settle on a date. PAOLO SORIA: We are aiming for the 16th, the very next meeting. He was here and he had to leave. JAKE JOHANSSON: Chairman, and county manager can we work with him to make sure they all got their stuff together? And that we put in the right place so we can get this over with? PAOLO SORIA: Their attorney Christy Wilson, that is exactly the plan. JAKE JOHANSSON: (indiscernible) and let's get on with it. It's ridiculous. JEFFREY S BROWER: The motion is for April 16 at 4:30 PM, that meeting will start at 4 PM so that is pretty early. All in favour say I? Any opposed? Item 8 is moved to April 16. That moves us back to item 4, I believe. Which is why you are waiting for us. Proposed vacation of a portion of the plat of the map of Henry P Bryans addition to Barbaraville. TADD KASBEER: Ted Kaser, County engineer. The map of Henry B Bryans addition to Barbaraville specifically the section of palmetto, Ashley and several unnamed rights-of-way totaling 1.2 acres. The road sections are unimproved and there in utilities, no objections from the neighbours. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: Motion. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion carried unanimously, 7 to 0. Item 5 a special exception for a communication tower exceeding 70 feet. CLAY ERVIN: Good afternoon, Clay Ervin, growth and resource management. This is a special exception in this particular zoning district. Towers that exceed, have to go through the special exception process is coming to you with the recommendation of approval from both your staff and the planning and land development regulation commission. There was no comment on the subject property. It is located near the town of Pearson. It is relatively undeveloped parcel. There is a mobile home on the property. This is where the Council will need to make a decision to waive the thousand foot separation requirement we have in our (indiscernible) criteria for these towers. The theory behind that is that… Anyone who may not be residing on the same parcel or within a thousand feet may not want to have said tower. The mobile home in question is on the subject property and the owner of the property has no problem with the close proximity. It is about 540 feet from the tower location. That would have to be part of the motion if you choose to approve this special exception. Otherwise, staff and the PLDRC are recommending approval. There are five recommendations that are on page 5 – three and five – four of the meeting. We will be happy to answer any questions you may have. DAVID SANTIAGO: Moved to approve including the (indiscernible) for the setbacks. MATT REINHART: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve including the exception for the setbacks of the mobile home can stay by Santiago, second by Matt Reinhart. Seconded by Matt discussion? All in favour say I. Motion carries 7 to 0. Item 6. Resolution 2024, rezoning from general commercial B for classification at 1328 Hirsch Street. Daytona Beach to the urban single-family home residential R4 zoning classification. CLAY ERVIN: Clay Ervin, Growth and resource management. The subject property is occupied by a church and will continue to be occupied by the church. The church seeks to do modifications to the site, it is discovered they have split zoning where they have there R4 which is a residential single-family zone and B4 for which is a commercial zoning in order to address the issues of lot size and conformance with the zoning it was recommended by staff and agreed to by the property owner to rezone to R4 so the property in his total will comply with the R4 so they can continue to use the property. There were four variances approved by the PLDRC, so that way we could facilitate the church's plans to improve the property. It is coming to you with the recommendation of approval from both staff and the planning and land development regulation commission. There was no appellate comment about the subject property. If there is any questions for your staff we would be glad to answer. DAVID SANTIAGO: move to approve. JAKE JOHANSSON: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve by David, second by Jake. KARISSA GREEN: I would confirm there was no ex parte communication 46, five or four. JEFFREY S BROWER: Let's start with item 6. Is there any exportation to declare? TROY KENT: None. TROY KENT: None for me. JEFFREY S BROWER: Item 5? SPEAKER: None for me. JEFFREY S BROWER: Item 4 was eparte? Any discussion on item 6? All in favour say I? Any opposed? Motion carries 7 to 0. Item 7, also a quasijudicial hearing. Resolution 2024, re-examining for the rural residential RR zone classification on West blue Springs Avenue to the urban single-family residential R4 for classification before you begin does anyone have any ex parte to declare item 7? SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: I do not. DAVID SANTIAGO: Met with the applicant's attorney. JEFFREY S BROWER: Met with the applicant's attorney? DON DEMPSEY: I met with the applicant's attorney and met with Mr. (Name) and went out to his property. SPEAKER: As well as visited the location, did not go on the property but walked around the property and met with a next-door neighbour. And talked with him. SPEAKER: I spoke with the gentleman mostly through email that I was supposed to meet with him (indiscernible) due to family issue. SPEAKER: Danny or Jake? DANNY ROBINS: I spoke to the neighbour on email and also spoke to the applicant's representation on the phone. JAKE JOHANSSON: Email and representation from me. JEFFREY S BROWER: I would also add I spoke to the cop (indiscernible) attorney in office with Clay about this. As did probably several of us. CLAY ERVIN: Clay Ervin, director of growth and resource management. Thank you very much... The subject property is located near the city of Orange city and basically on the cusp of an area that has rural on East and more urban development to the west. If you look north and south you can see that there is a transitional area going from a more rural area to a more urban area. The applicant is requesting a rezoning for rural residential to R4, which is a single-family residential development. Both are consistent with the underlying land use of urban low intensity. Staff recommended approval and it went forward to your plan and development commission with that. At the hearing, there were at least four property owners that objected in person. They cited a variety of things as referencing your staff report, everything from potential traffic issues to access onto Live Oak which is the street to the west of the subject property to impact on the use of personal property on their own land for things such as their own personal shooting range. For impacts on wildlife. Impacts on stormwater etc.. There was some concern from the adjacent property owners for the potential intensification and use of this property. Staff looked at it from a perspective of the underlying land use allows for the zoning of R4. There is consistent land use patterns to the west that the soils and everything else out there are conducive towards this type of development. And the overall, it was in general compliance with the comprehensive plan. There were some issues identified by the applicant, excuse me by some of the neighbours. In regards to access onto Blue Springs. The applicant submitted a conceptual site plan that showed approximately 10 single-family lots on a street with the cul-de-sac at the end and storm water and landscape buffer. This is not binding in any way because it is not gone through the formal site plan, excuse me subdivision process. Therefore it is really just for informational purposes. That will have to go through your formal review process of the subdivision. That is where we will check in regards to water sewer, storm water access onto Blue Springs or access onto Live Oak. There was concern by the residents that they did not want this proposed project accessing that property, excuse me that wrote. Live Oak is a public road. It is not developed to County standards. It is a dirt road right now. The applicant is indicated they do not plan on utilizing it for their access and have identified access onto Blue Springs. There is a considerable change in elevation along capital blue Springs and one of the neighbours complained that this would be a site visibility issue. Representatives from the Volusia Sheriff's office as well as your county engineering department went out to review it. And it did identify there is a considerable change and that would have to be addressed as part of the subdivision improvements to ensure there was a safe site visibility for access onto the property. Under the current zoning it could be developed for for single-family homes that could get access to Live Oak right now or access to Blue Springs. They could go through the subdivision process that way and be able to get approved under the current zoning. Under the proposed zoning and consistent with the land-use, they could in theory develop up to a maximum of 16 units. But, when you start to take into consideration the requirements for stormwater, for public rights of ways and other things, which you see in my conceptual plan that was included by the applicant that represents the practical maximum that could be on the property. There are some issues in regards to sanitary sewer. This is within the basin management access plan for Blue Springs so they would have to comply with that. They would have to first see if there is availability of sanitary sewer for service based on conversations with Orange City. That is not possible at this time, so they will have to coordinate with the Department of Health in regards to what is required in regards to advanced treatment systems… And their availability to develop the theoretical maximum. We believe that would also reduce even further the size of the lots because at that point you would have to maintain at least 1/2 acre if you are able to secure portable water from the city of Orange city, which is possible. The PLDRC reviewed and there was not a full membership present so it is coming to you with the 33 vote. Which is basically a denial. And so if there is any questions from us we will be happy to answer them. And all the applicant is available here to answer questions and I know there are members of the public would like to speak to this. JEFFREY S BROWER: There are numerous of the public to want to speak. Anyone a question, David Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: I have questions on the septic and sewer. There are no services available for sewer, right? Our ordinances allowed if there is no excessively can they go to the advanced epic systems is how you said? CLAY ERVIN: There's two different rules of play. Is there availability of sewer and potable water? Outside more than a thousand feet away, city does not have any plans to extend this utility by the property. We would not require them to do so. If they seek to develop the property, they then, would have to look at what is required for the on-site disposal systems, septic tanks. Because it's within the Blue Springs, they have to comply with state law in advance treatment. Not just your standard septic system, they have those which would remove a lot of the nutrients, specifically nitrogen, so that that way it would not have those pollutants into the spring system. DAVID SANTIAGO: Individual on lot systems? CLAY ERVIN: Correct. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Since this is close to Blue Springs, has this area already had a stormwater plan? CLAY ERVIN: And overall the drainage plan, have to defer to Ben Bartlett and his department on this. we have a basin study for 16 different areas within the county. Storm water on the existing lot, take the existing grades into running them on the property to be able to identify where the stormwater is going, and how they will be able to retain it on site to meet, so that the pre developing conditions exist. JEFFREY S BROWER: Has this area already had a watershed study? BENJAMIN BARTLETT: It looks it is on the border between Deland and St. John's. Deland is older, from the 90s. There's an overall stormwater basin study, which looks at issues in the area, I doubt this area there was a focus on because, at the time the study was done, probably was not much in the way of infrastructure up there. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. David Santiago. Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: I'm trying to look it up but I will ask the question. The block between Park Ave., Lancaster and Lancaster and Beresford and Beresford and Live Oak, were those originally and then changed to reflect what they are now? Is this just a march towards Orange City proper of cash from RR 4? Do you know? CLAY ERVIN: I don't know if the top of my head. The area to immediate left we have a considerable amount of land that is severed, and everything from quarter acre lots to half-acre lots to 1 acre lots. This area here is actually the unutilized for 300 foot cell phone tower. JAKE JOHANSSON: Right. CLAY ERVIN: Towards the north, you can see we do have the rural area there, and then more area to the east. So, it is... It is basically a mix of both large lot, rural type development and smaller quarter acre lot development. JAKE JOHANSSON: Technically, as we move on in this world, the area to the south and to the east could eventually become what this is? Right? As the blocks move forward? CLAY ERVIN: Yes, sir. This shows you the current zoning map, so this whole area... JAKE JOHANSSON: That is what I'm saying. CLAY ERVIN: This is existing R4, this R4 designation, at least eight years since I got here in this rural area is up here. The cell phone tower is zoned R4. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: I don't see any other questions, I am sure there will be questions and debates but since nobody is out now, let's see if anybody's up from the public. Do you want to speak first? I did not see you here. SPEAKER: Are you calling me short? JEFFREY S BROWER: I'm not calling you anything. SPEAKER: Good afternoon, Chairman. For the record, (unknown name) law firm of Cobb Cole, 231 Boulevard in Deland. Clay stole all of my thunder because he has been so helpful through the process and so has Kristin and the planning staff you have. They have done a really great job at the staff report, explain possibilities of what might happen during the engineering process. I want to remind everyone we are just entitlement. We develop a concept plan, a rudimentary plan, not required but just to give you an idea of what is feasible there, what is likely feasible. Once we get with your technical staff, they are going to ask for likely ask of right-of-way, for modifications because there is a high point in that area. They are going to ask for improvements to meet County standards. We were not going to put in a year of engineering, and then come here, and go through the entitlement phasing for something that may not occur. Step on the process, asking to go from RR to R4. As Clay mentioned you have R4 to South and West, RR to the west and R4 further is. We are asking to remain in line to what is contiguous to us both to the West into the South, and based on our designs, we think we can fit approximately 10 units there. Again, that might change depending on what improvements are required by your county staff in order to meet the requirements to be able to move forward and plot. We did do a traffic memo to review the traffic, and it is de minimus. It is minimal. You can think about putting 10 houses in the area, it is essentially up to seven peak hour trips. A small number of trips, a low impact on traffic relatively for the area and are asking to be consistent with the surrounding area of what is occurring. Another big point here is because it is a what you're going to call a master subdivision, there are certain requirements your county requires on us. One, that puts on us, that is 15% (indiscernible) we have to commit 15% of our site to tree preservation, and as you noted, stormwater. Especially in the scenario to oversized the stormwater unit because it cannot change what preconstruction, predevelopment waterflow. We are making sure that we are working on that, again, that is going to come through engineering. As of now we have this conceptual plan of how we think everything is going to work and we work with your staff to further elaborate that, as we go through this process. We are happy to answer questions, very much appreciate if we can come back up, and respond to public comments. That said, thank you so much. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any questions for (unknown name)? No? We will call you back up SPEAKER: Thank you, sir. JEFFREY S BROWER: You want to do it now? Clay. MICHAEL G DYER: real quick because I'm looking at what was provided, what was the reason for the 3-3 vote, what was the three denial based on? CLAY ERVIN: Public testimony came through. MICHAEL G DYER: Solely based on public testimony. JEFFREY S BROWER: I will call your name, come to the podium, speak into the microphone and you will have three minutes, tell us what you want to tell us. Laura Bischoff. Laura following you will be Mark Bergs, so Mark and get ready. SPEAKER: Good afternoon, council members. I would like to thank the board for allowing me the time to speak regarding this important subject. That will affect all of the residents that currently live near this blue Springs Avenue property. My name is Laura Bischoff, I have lived at my home for almost 30 years, and I'm located just east of the 1100 Blue Springs Ave. location. I would like to encourage you to keep this property in its current zoning, and not allow urban zoning which would help alleviate the potential of more flooding and more vehicles on our already overcrowded roads. Today I would like to focus on giving you some information regarding the current impact this would have on our already crowded school system in the western portion of Volusia County. This information is directly from the Volusia County school system level of service. you can see that up there on the board. Please pay attention to Manatee Cove, River Springs and University has golf for the 2022 and 2023 school years. As you can see the elementary schools are at capacity and three complexes located on Veterans Memorial Pkwy. set to open soon, and they're all zoned for the three schools in question. This will have a huge impact on the attendance numbers and these expected numbers from these apartments are not included in the above figures. Approving the rezoning of the property, will clearly have a negative impact on the already overcrowded school systems. I've spoken with parents who attend these schools, and they have stated that they have students sitting at counters in the classrooms because they do not have adequate desk space for them. This is not fair to the children, teachers or any new students that can occupy the new home. As reported last week, Volusia schools will no longer receive COVID really funny from the federal government. This can potentially impact the schools... Our schools are dangerous at school time, and traffic is backed up in all directions as kids are dropped off, and any emergency vehicle trying to travel blue Springs Avenue can expect delays. Often in excess of 10 minutes due to traffic congestion. You can see from the figures how this decision can affect our schools. I like to encourage you to keep this property at the current zoning, we do not need this property to be changed to R4 zone which can be split into 70 foot lots and can be increase. Our roads cannot handle the traffic and the schools cannot handle the students. Thank you for your time and hope you consider this when you make your decision. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you, Mark Bert. KARISSA GREEN: Can you tell me who is after Mark? JEFFREY S BROWER: Christina Bertrand. SPEAKER: Thank you for having me today. I have some pictures. I have photos, you can kind of see the slope of the road there because Blue Springs does have a 16 foot elevation range. The slope is significant and that is drain storm water is going to be a problem. It is definitely we are concerned with. We do not want to have another issue like Miller Road in Orange city or Kings Landing in Port Orange. We do not want to flood any of the existing homes, properties or habitats. Storm water is definitely a concern. The other issue I have is, it calls for 15% or 30% of the existing tree line to stay. If we get close to that root zone what is the guarantee we are going to have that any of that stuff is going to say a lifelong term who is going to maintain that? Is there going to be an HOA involved? And if there is, the character of the neighbourhood there is no HOA's today none of that matches. If this does go it will set precedents to the other large lots there. All of the rural could be gone in this area and that is not something that does not lend to the character of the neighbourhood. Thank you for your time. JEFFREY S BROWER: Christina followed by (unknown name). SPEAKER: I did not plan on speaking, but this is really important to me. To have lived in the area for over 20 years as that county employee for 28 years. One thing that has to be taken into consideration is there are three schools in this area. Two are off blue spring and the only way to access that but is off with blue strings because it is one entrance and exit to get to those two schools. Four times a day West blue Springs is jammed up with cars coming from both sides. And then if you do not use West Blue Springs and you know your way around, you will go down Beaufort or you will go down Williams because Williams is the only other paved road out there. Beaufort is paved almost to the end so people use it as a racetrack as well. Williams is used as a racetrack. They will take those two back roads, which are three routes away from where they want to build this, to get over to Adaline and Adaline takes you down Graves. Not Graves, Blue Springs. Forgot the name of the road. The road where the high school is. If you can bypass those areas, you will use those to residential roads. And they use them as a racetrack trust me, I live at the corner of Catherine and Beaufort. They use them as racetrack to get around the traffic at certain times. If the high school is getting in or out they go the other way to West Blue Springs. We cannot afford to have this. The high school, my daughter is in high school, and there is no student parking available. You cannot get a parking pass because they are so full. If you add more kids where are they going to park? They are out of parking passes. The other thing is I build homes out there and I was just assessed a couple of years ago $7000 in fees for trees, scrub jays and turtle surveys. Our every one of those homes going to be assessed for that? Or is this commercial development going to get that waived and we get stuck with the bill? JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Barb? Barb Lovelady followed by Doug Moorefield? SPEAKER: I lived on this residence which is half-acre for almost 30 years and I have seen many changes. Especially the traffic increased over the years. Blue Springs is a two-lane road and where they plan to put the entrance for this subdivision is on a hill and will become a very dangerous, hidden hazard to anyone driving over the hill travelling west. The traffic is so bad already and daily we see vehicles speeding by our house. Recently a motorcycle police officers observed from our driveway, the amount of vehicles that pass over the hill and that stretch of road. There are police reports stating that it is much too dangerous to put an entrance off of Blue Springs Avenue. I am sure you are aware of that. Vehicles coming West from 1792 travel way too fast and just the stopping of school bus at the bottom of the hill causes breaks to squeal and frustrated drivers. Can you imagine what it would be like to add more traffic and stop and go traffic on the hill? A disaster waiting to happen. Mostly I am concerned for the children who travel that bit of sidewalk on the hill. Those coming, going to school or to town. They ride their bikes and skateboards and run down that hill, generally enjoying the area in fun and safety. For those children and adults, I fear an accident will happen if that is taken away. And inpatient drivers trying to get out of this new subdivision having to go West, taking a chance not having any idea what is coming over the hill or if someone is hurrying leaving the subdivision to turn toward 1792 and not seeing that little five-year-old on his bike. Or the child walking, not paying attention, talking, running, stepping off the curb in front of the car. Someone's child could be killed. They could be related to you. Your children, or your grandchild. Why take a chance? It is not worth it. Are you aware of the police report of the danger? You will be responsible. Something that is not as important, but personal to us. Our property sits on that slope from that hill. And if more houses are put east of us, it will cause more water flow to come down, causing flooding and it will increase even more power and ability to roll along. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. You did a great job. Doug Moorefield? Followed by Carrie Costner? Followed by Robbie Coldwell. SPEAKER: My name is Douglas Moorefield. We purchased our house back in 86. We saw our Road go from dirt to pavement. A stop sign at the end of Blue Springs go to a red light. A lot of changes. We have seen motorcycle (indiscernible) a good friend of mine's minivan on blue Springs. The motorcycle was coming down the sidewalk at a highway speed at night with no lights on. The minivan came and did not see him, killed a 16-year-old child. We do not want the project to go forward. We actually have almost 2 acres on Buford. (audio issues) **Audio lost** **Audio restored** SPEAKER: … It is not just for different incidents. It is all morning that you have traffic between middle school and elementary school. I feel like it is going to impact the traffic, it is going to impact the utilities. And it is not something we want our in our neighbourhood. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Carrie Cuffner? SPEAKER: I live on W. Blue Springs Ave. I actually own two homes next to this property my daughter has 2 1/2 acres and I have 2 1/2 acres. We have been here 35 years. I am the one with the gun range and if they do build this into urban lots, I have been reassured by the sheriffs department my gun range will in fact stay because I own 2 1/2 acres. That will not go away. Our farm animals will not go away. Our chicken noises will not go away. Our duck, turkey, cows, goats. Nothing will be dismissed. My main problem with rezoning this, this property can withstand 3 to 4 homes I think with the existing area around those homes for water runoff. But if you rezone this to urban, there is no way even if they build two ponds, because ponds do not percolate over a few years. They fill up and then they run over. This property slopes north to south 22 feet. And then east to west, almost 17 feet when we shot it with a laser. I've been there 35 years and I see what my property does with water runoff. And we can hardly control it with just two homes on 5 acres. They were talking about in the first meeting, this property will need no field dirts in the minute is how I got a 323 phone. This property, each lot per contract it will take a minimum of 20 19 the Arctic trucks per lot and fill dirt -- 18 And see multiple people killed on the road and helicopters landing on the property across the street to evacuate people who have been hurt so back. Every time the law enforcement comes out, they write tickets from 45 miles an hour to 80 miles an hour on our road and you can look that up. It is public information. This is just ridiculous. There is not a neighbour surrounding this property except a person trying to get this resound lives across the street. Approve this he is not going to stop. They are going to do the property across the street and give everyone else open door. Let's all rezone to open property and have 75 foot lots. The neighbourhood cannot withstand this with the traffic and everything. If you look at the property on my map, all of the way to Sparkman's rural residential going East. When you go north all the way to French Avenue's rural residential and south is the phone tower so that way it does not matter what it is on because it is a phone tower. Starting across the street where they are trying to get it rezoned, yes it is urban property. But from this property and of your other three directions while we all built there so we could have quiet farms and not live in a neighborhood… Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Ronnie Caldwell? SPEAKER: I live at 329 Park Avenue and have been there for 25 years. I am a general contractor, homebuilder, single-family commercial. I think this is a horrible idea. We are not looking at the big picture here, we are looking at one lot. Aside from the fact that Lancaster Street is a basin. That is where all the runoff water will end up. Straight down Blue Springs, hook a left on Lancaster and Beaufort and going. But does not go that way, comes off the back of the lot it will run right through the houses where they already have flooding. Through Live Oak, through Buford. And will end up in Lancaster I have some pictures and one of them was of Lancaster. It is hard to see what you can see off of blue Springs it dips down and goes up. That is one of my views which you've already seen from the others, showing the slope going down. That is it right here. Like I said in the back where those trees come together, that slopes backup. The land to the right slopes back up. So all the water will settle there. Way get a tropical storm that is 36 inches of rain in three days they will have 3 feet of water in their living room. Retention pond, where is the overflow going to go? There is no storm system out there of any kind for it to go into. It is going to go into these properties. You cannot build a retention pond big enough to hold that. Period. We are going to set a precedent. Across the street we are going to see the same thing, these pop up all over. Everyone is concerned we are going to add automobiles from 20 houses. We are not going to add automobiles from 20 houses. It is going to be exponential. We are going to add automobiles from 400 houses. Because instead of four houses we can put 20. It is a bad idea all the way around. Aside from the land right now there is already a low area that taxes kind of retention in the northwest corner. They are going to have to put aerobics deceptive systems in. If they are too close together they will have to go into a drip system, requires the same maintenance and certification and they are very expensive. Drip system started 21,000 the house. That is what I put into old houses I'm building. I have built in the area, I have a house on 13th Street and another one on Sunder Avenue in Orange city... The schools are overcrowded, we have all these problems and we are going to set a precedent that if this gets zones and will create problems 10 years from now that we are all going to look back on is that we wish we had not done it. That's just how I feel. Thank you for your time. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Where did Paolo go? Nika, are you ready? SPEAKER: Thank you, Mr. chair. Just want to address, a couple comments. What we have heard often is president, and Paolo is there, and I'm sure they can tell you, is to come with the application, you have the application meeting for whatever matter is in planning, and it starts a process, it starts a domino process. You can see the comments, and then you get schedules for a PLDRC, go through that process, you come here, and then he get to the very technical details where you have trained staff to understand what is required with respect stormwater, traffic, schools, everything gets covered. Legally, that does not occur. You approve this today, it does not allow me to come in tomorrow and say, "You approve this one here, so you are required to approve this one here." Every single matter, everything will development, project, must stand on its own. It must meet the requirements of your code, it must meet the criteria required, whether it is rezoning or by later on there is becomes a site plan or subdivision, Haymaker that comes in that says it is comes in, and you get to be approved, it's an arduous process to get from step one to the finish line. Anybody want to come and puts through 400 lots has to come through the process. With respect to precedent, I can understand the general position of if we do this year, more people are good to come into it. You cannot stop anyone from trying to do something. But, again, it has to be compatible with the comp plan as well. And with the zoning category around the area. That is very specifically why we requested R4 we have on th , it is already compatible with the current land use property which is why were not asking for a comp plan amendment, it is why your own staff recommended approval. They look at all the criteria holistically and said that if it meets all the criteria, we are going to recommend approval. That is on the precedent, I wanted to go over that. Regarding the schools, we are talking about 10 lots. We submitted level to the school board, and because 10 lots is at the minimus they do not required to get capacity done here. They said it sounds good, we do not need to pursue this further. We did make that action to submit to the school district, and they responded saying that it is at de minimus amount of homes not requiring anything further. There's a lot of existing conditions are not ideal and our goal is to come in with a reasonable amount of lots and make certain conditions better, that is why they call them certain improvements of off-site improvements and on-site improvements. Working with County traffic we have to work with right-of-way, and lose County lots to put in turn lanes. We have to do whatever is required by your technical review staff to get approved in the first place. we cannot say, "Just trust us." They are going to go through the county staff, they'll tell us to change this and move this and we will get talking. With respect to the trees, certain individual brought up the rezoning loss of trees. Volusia County has a really amazing tree protection ordinance. It requires us to protect a substantial amount of the drip line. We do not get to just build a house next to a tree, that is not how it works. We have to have a plotted easement for our tree preservation that we cannot touch, that is also reviewed and approved by your environmental department. We have to make sure that we preserve and maintain the tree preservation areas, that is on the homeowners themselves, not on anyone else. With respect to keeping the area as rural as possible, I do understand there is areas that are RR, but this is a pretty urban area. You saw the map that shows everything on this side and this side, kind of all-around the three lot and four lot deep area is R4 already. We are not asking for something that is not occurred already. All the subdivision that occurred on the west side in R4 that technically exist to the South that can built on in the future can have 7500 square lots, and I understand there might be flooding issues because they do not have the regulations we have now that we had to adhere to. I have an engineer (unknown name) who can talk a little bit more about the storm water, if that does work for you all. I will bring him up in a minute. The last point I have to make is regarding the filter, there's something in the minutes that said we require no filter. I don't know if that got misconstrued. I'm a lawyer, I'm not going to speak about filter, I assume some level of it will be required. I know this is a typographically higher area, so the assumption would generally be you would require as much would be typically required in other places but I'm going to leave this to the engineer, I'm just a lawyer. Other than that, I'm happy to answer questions and we respectfully ask you approve this request. Do you want to talk about stormwater? SPEAKER: My name is Mark Namath (unknown name) civil engineer in the project. With regard to stormwater, this is a concept plan... We have not gone into any engineering design but understanding some of the topography, there is some elevation across the site in both directions is one of the residents mentioned. Once we get to engineering design phase, he we balance the site as much as possible, for any storm needs and development required. As was also pointed out, the storm water pond shown at 20% of the site area now, and typically in our experience for single-family residential development you only need to allocate 10 to 15% of the site but we wanted to oversized that for potential grading needs, and buffer requirements and anything else that might be in the actual engineering phase of the design. With that, with regard to stormwater, I think she already mentioned that as well, adjacent property does not have stormwater criteria to abide by and we had to go through that with engineering review to make sure we are maintaining any stormwater on-site in any runoff on-site, and if there's any off-site discharge, we cannot exceed those pre-development conditions. Again, we have not entered the design phase, engineering design phase but we will evaluate the concerns when we get there we will work to staff to address them. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. J Johansson, do you have questions for Nika? JAKE JOHANSSON: I do. You said you contacted school staff? SPEAKER: Correct. JAKE JOHANSSON: And they chose not to even entertain the thought that 10 homes are common? They do not show enough concern to look at it? SPEAKER: Correct. From my understanding, if it is 10 lots or less, being produced, they consider that de minimus and they do not have a concern. JAKE JOHANSSON: Did they comment that that is going to stay but we have a rule in place? SPEAKER: They did not. After we submitted the application they provided us with the commentary stating it is 10 lots currently showing, so we do not need to move forward in the process. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: Nika, I spoke to you earlier about this but then I went out and looked at the site on Saturday. Just so we are clear, the actual location – I'm going to put my pen in here. Basically, this is where the site is, right? Were the tip of my 10 is? SPEAKER: This is a picture I have not seen before so I cannot fully – as a lawyer, I cannot fully comment on the context, but it appears to be in the general area. DON DEMPSEY: You mentioned, my biggest concern is traffic. That hill, we have the letter and hear from Sgt. (unknown name) from the shares office. SPEAKER: Definitely. DON DEMPSEY: We have the two deputies here showing concern. The top of the property is the top of the hill, and entrance and exit is 150 feet down and west of the crest, I stood there, and it seems like, as a traffic study showed, it is 40 – these cars are not doing the speed limit, they are speeding over the hill. You mentioned earlier in your presentation that you would put turn lanes in. (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: We are in the entitlement phase. Whatever is required from us during the engineering phase, so you have all your very fancy traffic engineers, that you have on staff. All of those individuals get into her room, and I'm not in the room because I am a lawyer and I do not do math. All the individuals come together and say, "Based on the site conditions, current site conditions will require XYZ." (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: We don't know what is required yet because your staff isn't going to evaluate a development that has not been entitled yet further proposed entitlement here of R4. That occurs after this process. DON DEMPSEY: These photos, I hope you don't mind I'm borrowing them. Thank you, guys. SPEAKER: (away from mic) DON DEMPSEY: Looking at this different picture, would you say this is a fair representation of the property here? This is the property you are looking to develop with the fire hydrant across the street. SPEAKER: That's an assumption, I haven't seen the photos before but I cannot make an accurate representation but my assumption is it appears to be the area. DON DEMPSEY: When I went there that is the fire hydrant, the proposed exit from the subdivision. SPEAKER: Again, want to make something clear, the concept plan only exists in theory. I don't want to look at it and say that this is going to enter and exit here. None of this has been established. This concept plan is for one reason only, to see what is feasible on site. When we have a 20% stormwater and (indiscernible) we can theoretically fit 10 units on-site without even talking to the county, without the requirements are both at the concept plan is to give you on an idea of what it may look like. We are not even required to summit the concept plan. I can stand up here and say we want R4 zoning, we have not engineered a plan that has to go through the county review system, go through County staff and be approved through land development, we have not gotten there. DON DEMPSEY: My concern with the original picture. This is the top of the hill here, this is where the subdivision is when to be and this is where you can see it's blind, looking eastbound and westbound cresting the hill, and your entrance to the subdivision is 150 feet past the crest... SPEAKER: We don't know that. We don't know if the entrance will be there. (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: I'm not saying there's going to be turn lines, that's an idea, not saying you should do this or that or deceleration lane. There's a lot of options. We are going to move the entrance, back this many feet, we are going to do this and change this will have none of that is set in stone, and the only thing we're looking at today is the application for rezoning from RR to R4. I understand the concern. We are not there yet. We have not evaluated that because the county requires a certain process for us to go through and were not allowed to jump the gun and take all of your County staff time and start talking about all of the subdivision issues when we have not even gotten through the entitlement phase. DON DEMPSEY: I understand. In this letter from Sgt. Barnes from the Sheriff's office, notes there in the 300 foot border on Blue Springs, it's a 22 foot drop from here to here. Sorry about that. I don't know how to use the marker. David, you know how to use this but I can't figure it out. Basically from there today or in the 300 foot span is a 22 foot drop. SPEAKER: Right DON DEMPSEY: I stood there on the top of that, and I've watched with the entrance, that would give somebody cresting the hill three second reaction time to stop if there's a car trying to pull into the subdivision, another eastbound traffic car they are waiting for. The actually saw a car almost hit another car in the 30 minutes they were there. Quite frankly, I am most hit by a car pulling out of the driveway as I'm leaving. When you said turn lane, originally I was against this but you said turn lane, so is there a way that your engineer has that we can alleviate the issue with the stacking. My concern is stacking. SPEAKER: We have to alleviate stacking. You have a very knowledgeable staff that has very specific requirements, especially with respect to traffic safety. We have to meet those requirements, no matter what they are. Or we can afford with development. We cannot develop any lots if we do not meet your Counties traffic engineer and frankly all of the county staff's. Whether it is environmental, land development or traffic. If we do not meet the requirements we cannot develop. If they say we need to move this entrance, we have to move the entrance. If they say, this entrance does not make sense here we will have to move it for it to work, we are going to have to put XYZ improvements in. We have to comply with that that before we moved to development. You are looking at the concept plan and taking it to heart. I understand that. It is something that is just in a very conceptual phase, very rudimentary. It is just for general understanding of what could potentially be done on this site. It is not set in stone. It is going to go through numerous different processes with your county to ensure that all safety requirements are met. I do not know if you know Tadd, but he is going to hold our feet to the fire and make sure anything that is required has to meet all safety standards. SPEAKER: Is this Clay's jurisdiction? Does it matter? We'll get Doctor Burbaugh back here. TADD KASBEER: ... It is problematic as it is right now JEFFREY S BROWER: Two different deputies have written letters about the concern there. She had mentioned currently, and that is the thing that piqued my entrance. What assurances can we have that this is going to be a safe left and left out whatever to this project? TADD KASBEER: We do not approve it unless we are comfortable it is a safe situation. It would take a look at the elevations involved, site distance not just from a horizontal situation but from a vertical aspect that is problematic at this particular location. There are different options for tackling a problem like this, turn lanes are specifically one of them. We can do situation potentially where we pull down a little bit of that peak. That peak is a problem period. Even if you make this entrance safe it does not necessarily mean it is safer for the road just to the west. It is a problem as it stays right now and has five or six homes on it more people are turning left or right. While they have an extra hundred, that is not a whole lot. (indiscernible) We would like to see things like, pulling that peak down a little bit to try to improve that site distance in the first place. This is a local road, so we have other options like speed tables and those kinds of things to potentially slow traffic down. The one nice thing that would come from development, we would have somebody to pay for that as opposed forward to coming out of the council's coffers. Which should really be done in the first place. DON DEMPSEY: That is 22 feet. That is not a small hill. TADD KASBEER: I do not need to correct you but the contour map shows it at 16. DON DEMPSEY: I'm going off of the deputies letter. TADD KASBEER: Looking at the contour map 70 – 70 in the agenda item. You see it peaks around 70 and goes around 55 at Live Oak. DON DEMPSEY: If this passes today it goes to you. Does it go to us for final approval it is at rest? TADD KASBEER: Correct, they follow the rules… DON DEMPSEY: Comes out of our hands and is basically an staff hands whether this gets done or not? TADD KASBEER: Yes. It is our interpretation of the rules the prior councils have improved overall. All I can say is J Williams traffic controller and I are making sure everything we can a man make the situation worse. Certainly to improve it. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: You said in your presentation that under the current entitlement on the property you could do four lots. SPEAKER: Yes, sir. DAVID SANTIAGO: The proposed potential could be 10. SPEAKER: The practical potential. You could have 16, once we put it on paper it would be 10. DAVID SANTIAGO: You mentioned also that you had some type of basic traffic analysis or something that was done? How many road numbers, if I get the terminology used if it came to… SPEAKER: It is required as part of the rezoning process to get a traffic memo done. How much traffic are you going to put on the potential on the roadway? In terms of peak hour, we are looking at 16 units. Not 10. It was seven peak hour trips. DAVID SANTIAGO: At 16 units? And if it were 10? It could be five? SPEAKER: I'm not a traffic engineer. DAVID SANTIAGO: I'm going to go out on a limb and say five. As it's entitled, two, three? And the reason I am bringing it up is because the numbers are so small, this is not my opinion going to make or break that road. Based on the numbers I am hearing. If staff… Let me hear from staff. CLAY ERVIN: When we do these analysis we use the ITT… For single-family home that is typically 10 trips on a daily basis. That means throughout the day a single-family home will generate at least 10 trips. In the AMP it is typically 10% of your daily trip, same thing with your PM. What that means is if you have 10 homes, what you are looking as upwards of basically one to two trips out in the a.m.. Hundred trips total, 10 trips in the a.m., 10 in the PM. Then you have to look at how many are incoming and outgoing. It is an 8020 split in the morning going out. So that would be eight trips leading the subdivision, to coming into the subdivision and reverse that in the PM peak. If this was left in its current zoning then you would have 40 trips throughout the day. Four in the morning, four the evening. DAVID SANTIAGO: Here is what I'm struggling with. This is not something that is going to change the outcome of the problem in that area at this small amount of homes. I get it, if we have a problem there, it is not because of this project. I am talking about the road. It is a problem that we have lead up to where we are at today. That is something we should address if we are going to address it in any way for making the roads safer for everyone. Four more trips or five more trips at its peak is not going to change the road situation. I just wanted to add that out there. If this was 100 home subdivision or something like that, then we would have a different situation. I just do not see it Mr. Chair, I wanted to throw my thoughts out there. Unless someone could convince me adding for much worse than what is permitted makes that Road dangerous. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. I went out there as well and so I shared Don's concern with safety just from looking at it. From being there, looking at the road. However, my main concern after looking at the property is the flooding issue. Nika, when we met in the office and we looked at contour maps, we looked at the satellite images and it looks pretty flat. It does not look like it would be a problem. At then when I went there, there is we just talked about the way the roads looked there is a steep slope to the east. That water is going to go somewhere. I do not know how it has developed without a huge amount of fill. And that is the struggle in this kind of the hearing. You are right, this is the entitlement phase. This is not where you get to tell us how you will prevent, how the engineers are going to do all that. You said, trust us. We did not say… I am not making fun of what you set. You said trust your staff. I do not distrust from. You also mention, we have a very strong tree ordinance. This is why struggle. Mr. Santiago and I had this pushback and I understand his pushback. I said something about flooding and he said do you believe engineers are developing things to flood? Well, of course I do not believe that. And yet flooding occurs. That is why started off asking the question about a watershed study, if that was done in this area. And if it was we should have a stormwater management plan. I still do not know where that is, where they would put the water after we trust that that will be worked out. I did travel down just yesterday to Kepler and 44 where we had previously approved, the Council previously approved a storage facility. There is not a tree left on our property. I do not know what happens to the tree ordinance. Maybe there is a buffer and I cannot tell with the edge is. But 90% of it at least, there is no trees. The trees in the area the natural visitation will be really important for preventing flooding. I cannot see where that water will go without flooding the home behind it and all the homes to the east of it. I believe if we dig a big retention pond there, I have trusted. I have seen so many of them going and they do not retain the water. That percolates through, finds a clay layer and travels down to the next lowest property which is the neighbour. I cannot… It is totally different when you look at the contour map. Look at the satellite maps and go out and look at it on purpose. This is really steep property in two directions. You also talked about prece because several of the home owners talked about precedent. I do not think… I do not know what they think or believe butd I'm hoping they do not think this sets a precedent. That anyone can just come in and do this now. Everyone would have to go through the same gruelling process that you are. What concerns me is... I am trying to keep from coughing... It does create a desire for homeowners that just give up. They think they are protected in this area because of zoning. And then we come in and change the zoning on them. They lose their trust in us. They lose the protection they thought they had. They begin to say, "I am not staying here anymore" I am going to sell out. That does start the ball rolling, call it a precedent. And then we lose the rural nature of this area. The people that live here should be able to trust government. What they thought they could depend on is not going to be changed. The homeowner currently has the right to build four houses. They should be able to do that. They have the privilege to do what they are doing and come in and ask for zoning change. At the entitlement phase… It is really hard for me with any consciousness, good consciousness to say I'm going to prove this and hope that we do not end up with flooding. Hope that we do not end up with a clear-cut. But I learned that I cannot always depend on that. I am not struggling, I just cannot support it at this point. When you and I talked, I told you to me it looks like an infill project. Here is houses that are more dense and houses that are less dense. This is kind of halfway in between. Again, when I look at the property in person and see the steep nature of it, we are heading for a flooding problem here. I see them all over the county. And then I am blamed for it. And until we have a stormwater management plan in that area that can say, "this is an important area around the spring." This is how we deal with it. Because right now, it is almost out of control. Councilman Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: As chairman, I am a little bit lost. Where are we in this process? Are we still in the question.? Are we in the question. Or are we in the debate? I forget. Is there a motion, I do not know where we are. SPEAKER: I am still here for questions, I have not close that yet. JEFFREY S BROWER: He can ask a question come he is saying that because I did not ask a question, so he is calling it to my attention and I am breaking the rules. JAKE JOHANSSON: Not breaking the rules. SPEAKER: I would like to have one comment, Mr. Chairman. Just as a responsible so I understand you want to visit the site, and I most definitely appreciate that. And I get it. You are the county sheriff, you are hearing all of these stories, you are seeing it firsthand. These flooding issues and you are trying to get a handle on it. And we are here saying, look, we are trying to do this development and here's why we think it makes sense here. I can appreciate that. All I can offer to you is, look, there are old developments that are already zone R4 all around this site that were not developed with any stormwater regulations. Nothing! So, they were all able to be built with no stormwater regulations, notary regulations, on 7500 square-foot lots. And they have all gone in. Right? And we are here years later asking for something somewhat similar, but with a whole new set of rules. And you know, I say trust your staff, I say that from my perspective because I know how difficult it is to go through the engineer review process. It is not, you know, contrary to what some might believe, it is not just, oh, this looks great, stamp it and move on. It can be a real stickler. That was not a joke. Right? Your staff in Volusia County is unbelievably knowledgeable. I sat there in the back of those room sometimes I am just like, "you are saying words that I cannot even fathom or start to comprehend." They are an impressive group of individuals. So, I say that. I am not saying trust me, I am going through the process. I am putting what I know on the record with this application. But you have gathered an unbelievably incredible, knowledgeable staff. This is what they do. This is what they do for a living. And you all voted, or your predisaster's, and put certain standards in place. And you said, "hey Steph, you all must go out there and implement these standards. -- Staff. We have to and -- if there is any deviation, we have to know about it. Which is how you get waivers and any issues that come forward."… Special issues of that nature. I understand the hesitancy, but there is a very specific process in place and when you go through that process, staff reviews it, they review it again, they review it at least a handful or a dozen times throughout the process. And their goal is the same as mine and yours. I live here. I do not want there to be flooding issues. I do not want my house to have a flooding issue, just like anyone else. Which is why we go through a very strict and specific process. So, I can appreciate that you have dealt with a lot this year and over the last couple of years. And in other areas, with the potential for these issues. We would not do anything, right? We would not get our car going on the street if there is not a potential for us to get into a car accident. So, the way we look at it is, there is a very strict set of procedures and processes, if we follow that, your code says we should be allowed to move forward. That is why there is a recommendation of approval from your stuff. I cannot predict the future, you cannot predict the future, I understand where you're coming from with these issues. This is the development. We would appreciate you looking at this in the surrounding area, rather than talking about flooding that has occurred in -- and other issues that me and you have both seen. And I understand that. So, I get your perspective. I get there are possible safety issues with traffic. Which is why you have such an amazing team here to review those issues and to stop something and not let it move forward if there is an issue. And that is what I can offer you. JEFFREY S BROWER: I really appreciate that. You answered a lot of questions that were in my, what I had said to you. I am so glad you brought that up because I think that perfectly pinpoints my dilemma. It is getting really easy to predict the future. You talked about developments that have been there 60 years. That flooding, they do not flood until the new development goes in with all of the new water standards, all of the fill, everything we require them to do, and then the neighbourhoods around them fled after that. And you are saying, I trust them, they are going to follow all of the rules that they have to follow. All of these standards, they are not working. So, it makes it easy for me to look at the future and say, "this is risky." Michael Dyer. MICHAEL DYER: Sure, if I could make (unknown name) come up for a second. Starting on page 7 – eight of your agenda. You have (indiscernible) criteria that are to be followed in a rezoning. Whether you deny it or prove it, you will have substantial evidence. If Council would like, Paula can run through those. Because you may have some questions about some of those because you may have different opinions. But those criteria, because we are in a quasijudicial setting, governor whether you decide to approve or deny this rezoning, you are not here on a conference of (indiscernible) amendment. You are on a quasijudicial decision. And I respect that. You may have different opinions on that. I was just wondering if you could indulge me and let apologist run through this quickly, if you have any questions. On things that have grabbed your attention, please feel free to ask. And you would have to meet on that. SPEAKER: Sure. So, this is standard for, this is the standard for rezoning applications. So fundamentally, there is two things. One is the general, we will just call it (indiscernible) rule. That is how you analyse rezoning. It is not legislative in nature, it is based on substantial evidence on whether or not the applicant has demonstrated, you know, the relevant standard that they meet all of the criteria. If they meet all of that criteria and they are complied -- complied with the comprehensive plan, that does not mean you have to approve it, you can deny it if keeping the existing zoning served a legitimate purpose. And a legitimate purpose is, does it create a spot zoning situation. Is it incompatible with the area. This is the application of rules. You are here, not in your legislative capacity, you are here for the application of the evidence. Here are the rules. So you know, has there been substantial evidence such that the applicant has meant, you know, all of these criteria and which we will go through. Whether it is consistent with all adopted elements of the comprehensive plan, you have your staff recommendation. But overall, that is based on the element. It's impact on the environment or the natural resources, the rezoning. That is where your minimization standards kind of come in. It's impact upon the economy of any affected area. You know, is it detrimental to come of this is your main compatibility standard. Analysis. Is it detrimental to the area such that, you know, both uses cannot coexist over a prolonged period of time? Number four is your concurrency standards, which you know, for us they have demonstrated their compliance with concurrency and we have heard the statements about the school. Number five is any changes or circumstances in the affected area that would generate a rezoning. It is really a spot zoning, reverse spot zoning analysis. Is there any mistakes in the original area? It's effect upon the use or value of the affected area. Again, that is number seven. It is also a compatibility analysis. Compatibility does not mean the same. Again, it means candles to use his coexists over a prolonged period of time. It's impact upon the public health safety memorials. It is kind of -- the kind of discussion we are having about the typography issue with the road safety issue. That is not a capacity that is, OK, how are they going to solve this or how are they going to address this issue? That will come down later in the engineering process. And then you have your property rights consideration, the Florida statute kind of mandates that you have to take these property rights into account for making your decisions. So, if you have any questions about how those… Those are the considerations you are supposed to go through. If you have any questions about that, I can kind of answer them and kind of lead you on, OK, will what exactly does a standard mean? JEFFREY S BROWER: Before we move on, does anyone have any questions for attorney Paolo? David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: So, I understand you went through the criteria's. And what you are telling us is that we have to consider those criteria as, whether to approve or deny the request, based on competent substantial evidence, right? Can you define what competent, substantial evidence is? SPEAKER: Sure, it is evidence of a reasonable mind would consider to be… I had this memorized. That would tend towards the… SPEAKER: It is what a reasonable person would use to rely on to get to a conclusion. SPEAKER: If you have watched any lawyer shows, they have that beyond reasonable doubt. SPEAKER: I have watched (unknown name). SPEAKER: It is probably really low. It is that nonspeculative evidence? Is it factual evidence? What is the basis of it? And does it lead towards the conclusion you are going to? Does it help in the analysis? So, opinions of something is dangerous, for example. Something to back that up, do not rise the level of competent, substantial evidence for sub- statements about decrease in property values, so anyone can say that. However, you need to have a factual basis of that opinion. You know, are you a realtor? Are you a property appraiser? What are your specific comps? Those sort of things. In terms of lay testimony or… Competent comes so substantial evidence is what is the existing traffic pattern. People generally have a pretty good idea of how fast vehicles travel, how busy a road is. How dense a neighbourhood is. Kind of neighbourhood feel. So, those are competent, substantial evidence. It does not rise to the level of giving expert opinions. The congestion is going to be bad. Because those require a level of expertise that normally a person does not have unless they predicate it on background information. SPEAKER: In this analysis that we have to do in making this decision, is site design something of a criteria for us to consider? SPEAKER: It depends. Because I guess on criteria number eight, it33s impact upon public health, safety, or morals. You know, that is whether or not there is evidence that, you know, that leads towards, OK, if you rezone this property, does it have an impact on public health safety? The site design process will dictate itself, but you are just looking at whatever the site design is, with the allowance of the use itself, implicate that health safety issue. SPEAKER: It would be more of a 20,000 foot approach rather than getting into the details of what your staff is charged to apply in your land development regulations. And if the party is unhappy they can appeal the Council but if they feel staff arrived at the wrong decision. So compatibility of if you rezone the property, we believe it is not compatible with the neighboring property, it could arguably fall in one of these criteria. So that would be a much higher level conclusion than at the land development stage where you may say "I am unhappy with the location of the driveway." You are not there now because we don't know what the outcome would be. You can have concerns that would fit within the criteria if you had the evidence. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: I had questions that I can ask them of Paolo. The traffic issue brought up earlier in talking about the one stipulation that we are talking about here stop the traffic is something that already exists. People are already speeding, the hill is too hard to navigate and so that is something that we really can't hold, is that something we can hold against this? The proposed subdivision? It already exists and will go away whether they are they are not, right? PAOLO SORIA: The question is, would rezoning it make that situation worse? They are required to meet their site access and provide state -- safe access to their property. JAKE JOHANSSON: The problem will not go away, people are still speeding down the road. PAOLO SORIA: Correct. JAKE JOHANSSON: And the two other questions, for you or Clay, school parking is not a problem right? Where's my kid going to park? That was an issue, that is really not an issue. And the other one about traffic during school hours, arrival and departure, one of my biggest frustrations here in Volusia County is that people don't use the buses. The buses are empty and we drive our kids to school. So either get rid of the buses or start putting your kids on it. I believe that if we used buses and we carpooled more often and did things of that nature, traffic wouldn't be an issue and we have already indicated that the addition of this would not really raise the traffic issue. Correct? According to (Unknown name). PAOLO SORIA: In terms of capacity standard it is 10 houses... CLAY ERVIN: To help through the discussion, what you are asking about his concurrency that we are looking at. Volusia County has specific restrictions on developments that say you must have adequate capacity. We look at water, sewer, storm water, roads, etc. when you're at the level of the zoning as Mike referenced a few seconds ago, we are at 20,000 feet. We are looking at a conceptual plan that was submitted. It is not necessary as a matter fact for this type of rezoning. We look at the change from what are four homes allowed by right to a theoretical maximum of 16 because even though they are saying they are only going to put 10, we have to look at what the theoretical maximum could be. That is when you start going to the school board. They implement their own concurrency. They did a review of it based on the limitation of 10 and they said there is not an issue because the amount was so small, it will not have a significant impact on the schools in the zone. As far as roads go, we did the same analysis. There was a question about an on-site situation. York County engineer went out there and said yes, there is and they will either have to address it in and access on blue spring or access white oak. Those are decisions that will have to be resolved through the not the rezoning but... JAKE JOHANSSON: There is no doubt that our county has flooding issues. And my question now is, maybe it should not be to you but that area must flush water down the hill to begin with right now. Based on the topographical... I wouldn't think it would stay up there even though it is all grass. CLAY ERVIN: It has been referenced included in the staff report with a definite change in grade and there are sandy soils in the area so it doesn't have well-drained soils and so, when you look at it you can see the area basically drains back to the South and there are some currently sinkholes located on the property where the cell tower is located at where there is probably receiving some of these waters. But yes, they would have to go through and verify that all the water coming onto the site and leaving the site now cannot be altered in the developed stage. JAKE JOHANSSON: Not altered? So does that mean if they develop it that they can't retain more than that property already retains or can they retain more? CLAY ERVIN: They can retain more. JAKE JOHANSSON: It could get better, I am not saying it will. If they retain more than currently there because of the sandy soil and the flow down to the South. CLAY ERVIN: Yes sir. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you, that is all I have for questions. I am looking forward to debate. JEFFREY S BROWER: Danny Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Is this compatible with the URI, currently. Is it compatible with the land use currently? Is it compatible with the current land pattern currently? Is it compatible with the current (Indiscernible). Does the stormwater have to match the post construction stormwater? CLAY ERVIN: Yes sir. DANNY ROBINS: That being said I would like to get to debate, motion to approve at this point only. JEFFREY S BROWER: We have a motion to approve by Dani robins and a second by David Santiago for purposes of discussion. SPEAKER: Thank you for your patience and to the residence as well. Sitting here long enough during the last three years to go through a couple of times. Through this and some of these arguments that are being made or non-arguments, they obviously if they were in the noticeable problems, there has been three years since my tenure here in the chairman's tenure here to address these in the manner through state regulations through our own regulations. I know we have adopted them in the past because of flooding to reduce the flooding. There is a big difference between the property getting wet entered the house flooding. There is very little when you compare the number of residents here to the actual home flooding. There is a minimal amount of that actually occurring in Volusia County. Minimal. You compare to the residence of close to 600,000 people. All that can be sorted out but at some point, we will have to look at the fact of in these quasijudicial settings like this, holding people accountable and none of us up here are experts. Donna is an expert in law and Matt is an expert in correctional staff. Just because of his 30+ years in that field. Very few of us are experts to make some of these statements that are more opinions than anything. At some point, homeowners, people will have to hold and unfortunately I hate to do this will have to be held accountable because of viability of suits of the community will be faced with when we are hit with this because we are out of bounds in my opinion. We must follow the law and I brought up specific questions to our more than qualified staff who are experts that have given us this information. We are way out of bounds when it comes to decision-making here. Is there some flooding issues, absolutely. Who's fault is it, I don't know because the tables can be turned in the whole scenario, why is it OK if the theory is correct of water flooding other people out, it means that everyone else's home in these areas are flooding out somebody. But people still do have rights to do certain things if there is consistency and if they meet the criteria set by the government. If elected officials don't like that, have they done to change it if that is an issue and not a political issue? Paragraph at the end of the day, that's where I am at. I want to see all this stuff address, these are valid concerns, all the folks have valid concerns. I won't disparage that. All of that is taking care of by the book through our wet blanket policy that we have in this community. In Volusia County when it comes to any type of development, it is asinine what an ordinary person has to go through to do anything in Volusia County. But yet, we hear all this stuff but we are not getting any suggestions on how to fix some of these issues. You can understand my frustration, and I can understand yours and I understand theirs as well. But we have to follow the rules that are in place. To my colleagues, if you don't like the rules, come to the table with the resolution. Thank you. SPEAKER: Understood, thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Don Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: I would. Everything you're saying. I know we have met before and I was a lot more optimistic in my discussions with you because I generally, on paper it seems like a wonderful project. A logical choice until you go out there. And I am telling you, I may not be an expert in traffic engineering but in 34 years of practicing law I have done a lot of traffic homicide cases and prosecuted and defended bodily injury cases and fatalities and cases on this road even. And I am telling you, standing there at live oak, I don't know if you can put this up. Standing right here at Live Oak where you are proposing an alternate entrance to the site... Let me see if I can get it on here for you. So you can validate that this is Live Oak. There we go. There is Live Oak. This is what you are proposing will be the main entrance into the subdivision if the center entrance doesn't work. The center entrance, see the fire hydrant up there on the left? You can see a dark circle there. On the west side. JEFFREY S BROWER: Point of order. SPEAKER: That question has been asked and answered at least six times. This is only a preliminary sketch of what can happen but we are beating a dead horse. DON DEMPSEY: This is debate so I'm headed to debate. So standing here, it was three seconds, the letter submitted by Sergeant David Barnes said when he was standing in the same location for 30 minutes, we observed several traffic stops of speeders over 47 miles an hour and in the timeframe we observed a vehicle on West blue Springs cresting the hill, traveling west that caused, obstructed the view... The hill obstructed... Within the timeframe we observed a vehicle attempt to make a turn south onto Live Oak, in the picture. The hill obstructed the view of other vehicles traveling west which caused numerous vehicles to break abruptly and... This is my concern, not the flooding so much because I believe it is an issue but I don't have the knowledge to sit there and say no because of flooding. But this concerns me because I am not saying that 10 more houses isn't going to be a major factor. I agree. 10 houses in and of itself won't affect the general flow on blue Springs. I get it, but there are only eight houses on Live Oak that I see from the aerial. So now, if we are going from eight houses on Live Oak to now we are going to have up to 16 more houses using Live Oak as an access point to the subdivision, now we are going from eight homes using Live Oak as an Access to get home to 2004 and now tripling the amount of traffic onto Live Oak. This place is very busy in the mornings because the school is right up on the hill, here is the school. The lady said that these cars come when they are dropping the kids off, they have to go eastbound looking up this hill. You have all of these cars pulling up. If you have the one car that is coming westbound towards us in the picture having to make a left to get onto The Live Oak. You have all of those traffic blocking that vehicle trying to turn south from the westbound lane, which is what the officers described it. He saw just 30 minutes. Now you are tripling the amount of cars. They will be turning southbound on to Live Oak. Now you have that many more instances where there is a car stopped on westbound blue Springs as it is waiting to turn south. And all of these cars cresting the hill going westbound on blue Springs. That is my concern. If this entrance was 100 yards to the west or 100 yards to the east, I would have an entirely different position here. The fact that it is only three seconds from when you cross that hill to where the car in front of you turning left onto Live Oak is sitting, waiting to make its left turn, and you have that reaction time. If those two cars behind this car managed to stop and you have the third car cresting the hill. I mean, you have stacking. That is what they are describing here in this officer -- or this Deputy Burns's letter. That is my concern. It is not that we are adding traffic to the flow of blue Springs, I am saying that we are tripling the amount of left turns from westbound traffic, to Live Oak. It will be that many more standing vehicles, sitting ducks, potentially on Live Oak is the danger, thanks. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you. I just want to clarify, as I understand this, this request is to go to R4. They could have as many as 16, they want 10. But it may be less than that even then. It might be 4. It might be five. It might be six. The location of the accident, as I understand it, it might be anywhere. There could be a location for an exit. It was not on Live Oak. Where you said it was, it was not on blue spring where you said it was. It could be anywhere. Yes? Wherever it is designed. Now listen, folks, I am talking now. So, what I understand is that all they are asking for is to go to R4. That is all they are asking for, and they showed us a pretty picture. They did not tell us where the accident would be. They did not tell us where they are going to leave the complex. Tadd told us that he is not going to let them build and put us in danger, he told us that he might even shave down that hill a little bit. Which leads me to believe that the developer would pay for some of that, which I am happy about, too. All these questions and these concerns that we have had our concerns. They are concerns that the public has had. They are concerns was about is not what we're here for, as I understand it. We are here to see if we should go from RR to R4. And let staff, the people who have been trained, to answer the mail and make sure it is right. It is in our district, I am sure staff would be willing to do that. The what-if scenario, we are in another position with the different development. We are putting the cart way head of the horse, in my opinion here. I share the same concerns. But until I see big paper with lots of detail, I am not going to comment on what could happen. Because I am not sure it is going to happen. Thank you, sir. JEFFREY S BROWER: David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, Mr. chair. Well said, Jake. I agree with everything you said there. I want to address a bit, Don, what you said. I know you said the 16 number, which will never happen. I know they have to do that because it has to go to the maximum allowable based on the zoning classification. But I do not know if you recall from the questions I was asking the attorneys applicant, the applicant's attorney, it looks like based on the generations that they discover, what they research on the traffic analysis was far more additional than what is entitled in the peak hour. For more than what is entitled on the property today. I know you mentioned your reference to the police, the sheriff deputy, so his observations with two deputies. That is today. That means there is a problem there already. Right? I think it is safe to say that it is something that needs to be addressed irregardless of this development. Maybe it is something we need to do. So, I would not hold this particular project hostage because they will add four more additional peak hour trips. To a road or an area that we have to address anyway. And I am confident with the statements that Tadd has made, I am confident with our staff, I think they have heard it here. They will apply proper standards to make sure that whatever happens there is going to be done right. And then we need to solve the safety issue in the long run. So, I do not know, I think you should be engaged, I think it is in your district. So, I get it. For more troops in a peak hour is not going to make or break that problem which we need to address regardless. That's just how I feel, I wanted to share my thoughts. -- Trips. SPEAKER: Former trips… Maybe the one that proves to be the most damage. Good thing I would say, is if we can share this picture here, Jake, the spot that I was referring to, this Live Oak is in a safe access and entrance. On the pictures we were given of the proposed entrance and exit, is where that fire hydrant is. From there, it is only a second and a half reaction time. So, in that letter written by the Sheriff's office, saying, "I believe if the same scenario occurred with the resident attempting to turn into their perspective driveway", which is in the middle by the fire hydrant, if the same scenario occurred while a resident was attempting to turn into a perspective driveway, this would result in a vehicle collision. This is not Don Dempsey. SPEAKER: Again, that is just a picture of where that exit would be. SPEAKER: Chairman. SPEAKER: Thing at him and talking to me. SPEAKER: You control it. -- Looking at him. SPEAKER: Even speak when he is done, all you have to do is put your hand up. SPEAKER: All I am saying Jake, the fact that I am a mentioning Live Oak, in the agenda meeting and my meeting with Nico, this was proposed to me because I had this concern then. And this was given as the alternate subdivisions. Because it is, apparently, much safer than the one given to us in the drawings. That is my concern. I think this is Sgt. Burns has the same concern and we all talk about trusting staff, we have to trust staff. Well, I trust staff. I also trust the PL DRC. You know, we appointed them. And they said no to this. So, it is easy to sit here and say, trust staff, but then we will poo poo everything that comes out from the PL DRC from now on for so I trust them as well. Just because we have the staff's recommendation, we do not have the PL DRC's recommendation. Just because I am siding with PL DRC's recommendation, not staff's, I do not think that makes me the villain here. It is just that the water thing, I do not know. But I do believe that this traffic thing could be very dangerous in the future if more cars, even if it is for more cars a day, if they encounter this high traffic flow to the east, and as they are waiting for the car that is westbound is waiting to turn and after all of the eastbound traffic clears up, it is sitting there to make that left turn, this car comes cresting that hill is going to either have a second and a half or three seconds to go from 47 miles an hour to stop it. That is my concern. And you know, I think that happened to me coming out, while this deputy was there for 30 minutes, he saw it. So, it is a real issue. Like I said, if this is 100 yards to the West or a 100 yards to the east, I would be completely in favour of -- of it. It is this crest on the hill. I do not know how the county proposes to move a mountain to get rid of this hill, but I just do not know. I would like to be able to review it one more time. Just for us to leave it here today and say, OK, we will trust. They may approve it the way they are approving it now and they do not even know what the plan is to approve safety. I have not heard anything about how we are going to fix this. It is just not, you know, we will figure it out. But it is not enough for me right now. Not with the safety issue. Thanks. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you. Jake Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: I am sorry, Troy Kent was ahead of you. TROY KENT: I do not mind yielding to Jake because he was mentioned, and I will go after Jake. JAKE JOHANSSON: OK, thank you. A couple of clarifications. The exit - there is no exit. So, you said you want 100 yards to the east, 100 yards to the west, of nothing. The exit you are seeing on that picture is just a picture. It is not exactly what it is going to be. Correct? Do you understand that? I want to understand, chairman, that he understands. That that is not what it is going to be. Give me a thumbs-up. Or a thumbs down. JEFFREY S BROWER: Troy, would you yield to Don. TROY KENT: Again, I will yield… (Multiple speakers) SPEAKER: Anywhere within the 300 feet of (indiscernible) is bad or regardless of where they put it, anywhere in their. JAKE JOHANSSON: Now I understand you. The second point is, PL DRC did not deny it, it was (indiscernible), and therefore sent to us as denial because it was tied. Thank you, sir. JEFFREY S BROWER: Which is a denial. Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you, chairman. As I begin my comments, Mr. Kasbeer, can you come up here for a moment? I did not answer any questions, you can keep my time going, it is OK. To answer your question, Don, you are not the villain. In my eyes, you're not. And I do not to get anyone's eyes. I respect your advocacy for safety in this area. There is a ton of comments that I have heard over here as far as the number of units and this is not creating the problem. Can you briefly, because I only have 4 and a half minutes left, can you briefly tell us some traffic calming solutions that can be put in this area. Because I have seen them be extremely successful in other parts of our beach. 32nd run down. Todd Mack -- TADD KASBEER: One that I would really prefer at this point… That will not slow people down so much, it will actually improve the site distance. Overall. Really what they are doing is just cutting that section outcome of learning that road sections are you have a bit of a slope on the outside. It is common everywhere else in the country where they have actual hills as opposed to little bumps like we do. So, we do not do it very often, but we should. Those are things. Turn lanes would also help with that because you are changing where the drivers are. SPEAKER: Think you, you helped me when you said's bleed tables pleura. -- Speed tables plural. You can have a couple of them with signage and blinking lights for it. I have seen that in multiple places. And then my last 30 seconds or that I will use, misdirect and wild, if this gets voted up or voted down, it sounds like this is a problematic area, I would respectfully request that you are very careful -- capable traffic engineering team and your department, make sure that something is done here to help with traffic calming. Thank you. SPEAKER: You have my insurance, thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: (unknown name) robins. SPEAKER: Thank you, you are going exactly where I was going. I was on the traffic unit for years and we have hundreds if not thousands of tickets for this kind of related stuff. And address them -- a multitude of speed and hazard situations that we were tasked to enforce. There is rumble strips, there is the speed tables, caution lights, you can put out radar signs. You know, slow down signs. Flashing signs. And also, too, a great remedy to a lot of this is the causers of this, since signs are just a deterrent, is law enforcement. Also, we have a great relationship with the Sheriff. It takes five seconds to write an email. You will get a response back from the Sheriff probably within five minutes. SPEAKER: There are all sorts of traffic studies to put the blackstrip across the highway to monitor speed, time and distance and all that stuff that Mr Kent is talking about. It can all be tracked through law enforcement and there are mechanisms to address it. Moving on to the PLDRC, we talked about the personal gun range and that is not going anywhere. Impacts on wildlife, the flooding, we address that. Air pollution and the requirements to possibly connect to utilities. All this stuff there is a process for this to be addressed. I think we are getting a little into the weeds and I understand there are valid concerns and whatnot but I want to make sure we stay within our boundaries as to not create additional liability to the taxpayers and the citizens and the residents out there. But Don, you're not a villain and I wasn't trying to step on you earlier but we have talked and had multiple bites at the sample and we need to follow the rules a little better. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Don, you are not the villain, I will be glad to be the villain. Really not glad to be but I think you are right having been there and you look at the two roads, I don't see a good exit or entrance. I don't see where it could be put unless the road is cut down like Tadd said and then I don't know who pays for that. I would assume the developer, the builder would pay for it and not the taxpayers. I will go back to flooding. You said you weren't sure that flooding would be an issue and I guess I am. The reason I am is because I have been there and looked at the property but I have looked at properties all over Volusia County. You can look at this property if you put page 721 back on, there is a reason it is not flooding now, it is heavily treated with natural vegetation and natural mulch. It is deep sand and so when it rains, even heavy rains, the soil absorbs it. When you move, take away the vegetation, and you create impervious soil through driveways, homes, there is less soil area to absorb the water. We see it over and over again. The reason, I sound so certain when I say that is because I go somewhere every day. Usually two or three places every single day and look at flooding in this county. Not just in West Volusia or new Smyrna, Ormond Beach, I am all over. I am not saying that front lawns, I am seeing people's houses that have been destroyed from water intrusion. And so, I think we have to be really careful and that is why until we have a stormwater management plan based on the watershed study, I don't know how we are expected to vote for these things. I can't support this for those two reasons. The safety issues and the potential of flooding and before I am called on, you are not an expert, I have been studying soils inside was in college and since 1979 I have been a soil consultant for Kinsey agricultural services and I look at soils all over this county and outside of the county from Palm Coast to Longwood and I have a pretty good understanding especially if you go to Palm Coast if you want to look at flooding problems. So, it is a tremendous concern. This is not fair to the people that live in this neighborhood. That think they have a protection with the current zoning that we may vote to take away. It is not compatible with the area. David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: I entrust our staff to address the traffic issue and with that Mr chair, I am called to question. JEFFREY S BROWER: There is nobody else up to talk anyway. Could you please call the roll, and the motion on the floor is to approve the zoning change and the motion was by Dani Robinson the second by Mr Santiago. (Roll Call Vote) JEFFREY S BROWER: The motion passes five – two. SPEAKER: Thank you all for your time. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, we will give everybody a chance to switch here. That takes us to item 9, contract with Paul Culver construction Inc. for professional construction management and general contracting services for the international Speedway Boulevard beach access improvements. SPEAKER: Good afternoon Mr chair, Council members Ben Bartlett. Before you today is a part to be of our for construction contract for improvements to our international Speedway Boulevard ramp. The photo you see above is the current condition of the ramp. The next photo is the conceptual plan that was approved a few years ago by counsel. Construction budget was just over $2.3 million. We have brought in as part of the part B a guaranteed maximum price of $2.6 million but we have an option as a potential cost reduction of around $884,000 to eliminate the colored concrete and ascetic portion of the ramp itself. As you can see in the conceptual plan, part of the reason we included it initially, if you look at the intersection there there were some pavers that were installed as part of a streetscape project quite a few years ago we were looking to match the aesthetic as part of the DOT's current projects that they have going on of the improvements of the ISP corridor from the bridge to A1 a and those will go away. We have confirmed that with DOT and the plans that show the pavers being moved. Color concrete is very expensive as you can see and we wanted to bring that to your attention as part of a cost saving measure should you choose, staff recommends approval of the part B of the contract and we would like to hear your direction on whether or not you would like to see us remove the colored concrete portion of the contract. Happy to answer questions. JEFFREY S BROWER: Questions first for Mr Bartlett. Troy do you have a question? Troy? MATT REINHART: We talk before and their businesses right there and one of those was a new business that moved in there within the last year. His concern was parking and there is an issue where he actually had homeless parking in his parking spaces which we have addressed with law enforcement and I was glad to see that but during construction, two questions, will there be somewhere to accommodate the parking for businesses so they don't suffer? SPEAKER: As you can see, we are completely redoing the parking from parallel to (Indiscernible) but we are working with the local businesses as best we can to minimize the impact and on the south side the only entrance to the boardwalk in is also on the ramp. That is part of the issue in maintaining... SPEAKER: He is doing construction there as well. SPEAKER: There is a lot going on in the corridor and it's kind of one of those rip the Band-Aid off and will work with the businesses to make sure we are not impacting the business. SPEAKER: With respect to the boardwalk in doing their construction at the same time, I know we are trying to coincide this with FDO T redo of the road and will that be immediately following? Because they are already involved. How soon before that would... SPEAKER: As far as the boardwalk? We are ready to go. SPEAKER: Would all be at the same time? SPEAKER: There will be an overlap and... SPEAKER: There will be an overlap, so will be pretty quick. Thank you. I kind of like that but I understand the cost. JEFFREY S BROWER: What is FDOT going to leave in that intersection? There is not going to be a roundabout, there will be lights, SPEAKER: Signalized intersection, asphalt and a crosswalk. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Can I have, I like the color and we chatted a little about it. I am interested to know what the value added is. Whether you can give it or cover construction can give it. Does it play in to marketing or economic development? What do our people think about it? SPEAKER: Initially we were looking to match the existing aesthetics of the intersection but that was a blue wave. It is the entrance feature for the primary be trained for so many visitors, it's got the famous beach sign and all that so the thought was in addition to the improvements that we would give it an aesthetic look to it. And try to match what was there but obviously that is going away. JAKE JOHANSSON: I am surprised that our marketing folks and Bob Davises and all of those folks in that hotel heaven chimed in and said anything to us. So I guess I am in different if they are. So thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: George wrecked them all? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: I would point out the picture looks good from 10,000 feet looking down and I'm not shows sure what you pick up when you're actually down at street level. The other part for my experiences wet sand will travel up so the Eastern quarter of it will likely have a lot of sand on it and of course we sweep and everything but throughout the day, so, I'm not sure what we gain out of it by having it. So that's why I think we are supporting removing the blue concrete. SPEAKER: I think the colors are red and white anyway. JEFFREY S BROWER: You needed two things from us, we need to approve the expenditure and you also need direction on whether or not we take out... Let's deal with that first. If we take out the blue pavers. SPEAKER: May I have my comments first? JEFFREY S BROWER: Yes you can... I didn't see you up there. SPEAKER: So counsel, this was, I had very few questions for staff this week but this was one I had because of the price tag. I didn't like the price tag and I don't like the price tag but after misdirecting Walden I spoke, there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. This is a huge major redo to an area that certainly needs it. So I am going to deal with this price and the cost. As far as the color concrete, I am OK with taking it out. Whenever, whoever did this in the past, when they are first done they look great but I drive this area from time to time and if my memory is correct where the sun is, there is some sunken in pavers and they are not fixed and when it is not fixed it doesn't look right and when they do fix it, I have seen where they don't even come in and try to match the design they had, they put blacktop in there and I think "what are you doing?" How could you have this beautiful motif you have and all of a sudden you're going to fill it in with blacktop. That would be my concern down the road with discolored concrete. So I am with saving money and not doing the colored concrete. That is where I am on this. JEFFREY S BROWER: … Matt Reinhart. MATT REINHART: I would like to make a motion to not do away with the colour concrete. I think it was a valid point the manager brought up. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK, motion to admit the coloured concrete. SPEAKER: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: By Councilman Reinhart, second by Troy Kent. Any questions or debate about that? All in favour of admitting the colour concrete, say I. SPEAKER: I. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any opposed? Motion carries, 6-0. We will ask Don when he comes in. OK, so now we move to the, approving the full expenditure of the figure now will be 2,000,300 some thousand. SPEAKER: … (Away from mic). SPEAKER: Motion to approve. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve the expenditure by Matt Reinhart. TROY KENT: Second. JEFFREY S BROWER: Second by Troy Kent. We will wait for him. Don, there is a motion on the floor, we had a motion and a vote to remove the coloured papers and save the 300,000, would you like to vote on that, yes or no? DON DEMPSEY: Yes. JEFFREY S BROWER: So, that vote was 720. Now the motion on the floor is, to approve the expenditure, which is now 2.27 million. SPEAKER: You have public participation. JEFFREY S BROWER: We do have public participation. Would you like to speak to this? John Nicholson. SPEAKER: John Nicholson, Daytona Beach side. As you remember, last year, the roundabout, it is no longer going in. But what happens is, when you redo this, this is our major entrance. Right? This is your major entrance into the biggest money, if you do not pass what you are doing. Your biggest moneymaker. Right? It is also, at the end of what we are doing now, after 40 years we have been planning on doing ISB, it is in the process now, this is the end of ISB before we hit the water. It is going to be a major impact for us. The problem is, if you have the roundabout, there would be certain problems. There are certain problems now getting cars on (indiscernible). What you have done is, you have moved and made that stack up area shorter. And narrower. So, fewer cars can be east of N1A. That is my problem, alright? By turning the cars diagonal, or from diagonal or perpendicular, whatever you want to call it. You are taking space off of the roadway. All right? You are taking away a lane, even though we are not using two lanes anymore. Because it is only access onto the beach, you cannot come on and off. You are using two lanes to get onto the beach, my recommendation is three or four lanes to get onto the beach. Because when (indiscernible) does it, it is the average over the year. And we are a tourist destination. The same amount of people do not show up every day of the year. Bike week, race week, spring break, summer vacation. The numbers go drastically high. The more people use the beach during the summer than they do during the winter, surprise. So, the numbers will go up. But if ODT does not care, they only do it for the minimum. I'm asking you, when you look at this, to look at the number of cars you can stack on the other side of A1A. Between the beach and A1A. There are ways with the boosts that you have now to have cars coming and going. So, one person can be this car, and while that car is pulling away, the other cars are already sitting there. You can collect from this side. So, you get twice the number of cars that you would normally have. So, you can get four lanes with two people. So, you are not increasing the number of people. Just the amount of cars that can enter and be stacked up. I am asking you, at least on that part, to the carefully -- look carefully at what you are doing. Thank you very much. JEFFREY S BROWER: To you, Matt Reinhart. MATT REINHART: I will let (unknown name) respond if that is OK, because I saw his head. SPEAKER: We have two lanes coming in as we do now. We have change the parallel to perpendicular, part of that was to beget a handicap space put in. -- To get a handicap space put in. We have more space because we are shifting the interactions with the tolls to the east. And going to the automation, we will have that process sped up. And when we do during our high-volume days have what we call walkers, where people are paying cash, where they will speak to a human being, they can pull on the beach. And we can add staff to accommodate that. We are very cognizant of the stacking concern. Not just threat -- not just this rant, but other high-volume ramps. We will be making sure that those cars will get on the beach as quick as possible. JEFFREY S BROWER: Thank you for that. Just one last comment from me. And if I am wrong, please correct me. But I do not believe that with this price tag, we have only removed the colour (indiscernible). The bathrooms are still being moved a good distance, the landscaping does not change. We just, the only thing that has changed is the coloured papers. SPEAKER: Correct. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. Any other… Comment, debate? The motion on the floor is to improve the 2.27 million contract with (unknown name) construction, all in favour say I. SPEAKER: I. JEFFREY S BROWER: And he opposed? Motion carries, 7-0. Thank you. Item 10, storm water utility fund program update. Ben Bartlett and staff. SPEAKER: Swapping out some folks real quick. Good afternoon, again. Ben Bartlett. (unknown name) director. We had a discussion last year at Council about the stormwater program and the stormwater utility rate fee that is charged. Council directed staff to move forward with a study of our program as well as the utility rates and bring them back for you all to review. Quickly starting off, just a brief history of the stormwater utility fund in Volusia County. It was originally implemented in 1993. In 2005, stormwater utility rates study was performed. Which recommended initial rate of six dollars per ERU. Maximum eight dollars per ERU. In 07, we did a public wide efficiency study, which led to the completion of the task team, at that point various divisions throughout the County had a drainage component to them. We brought out all under one roof, which we call the drain task team and it currently resides at (unknown name) Bridge. In 2018, we did an efficiency study were we updated the efficiency study to have that same consultant come in and take a look. One of the things that they noted specifically with a lot of operations cruise is that we were accomplishing more work with less equipment, less dollars, and the same number of employees. Last year, we have the discussion because of the five-year forecast was showing a budget deficit in the stormwater utility of the current rate. This Council approved an increase from six dollars to $6.50 per ERA per month. As I said earlier, directed us to come back with the study. Real quick, part of when you look at any kind of rate study of any kind of program like this, you are talking level of service. We have four components. To our stormwater utility program. Program management, regulatory compliance, operation and maintenance, and our capital approval plan. Currently, a brief overview. An A is basically fully funded, you know, from we are doing everything right, we are fully preventative maintenance on our own. We are -- our capital program is fully funded and we are using capital money from our stormwater utility to funds the entirety of those projects… For our program's level of service B and I will get into each of the individual segments here of where we are at and where we need to be. First up is program management, we had a discussion, two items ago, stormwater watershed. Basin studies, stormwater master plan, you can use those interchangeably. We have 16 distinct watersheds throughout the county. 11 of those have had some sort of a basin study performed. Basically, when you do a basin study or water analysis, the consultant will go in, they will look at the outfalls, where the water goes. What is the anticipated rainfall in those areas, they will look at current land use, future land use. They will even take into account if there is development that is permitted but has not been built yet. What they are looking to do, if they are modelling. Investigation into the areas, using by (unknown name) looking at all of those different aspects of the topography to find where are the issues. Where is the flooding occurring? Where is the water quality issues? Originally when our study was developed, the focus was on flooding. In the last 10, 12 years the focus has just to water quality. We have impaired water bodies regulations have increased, now moving forward, when you do a watershed analysis, you are looking at not just letting, not just water quality, you're looking at both. And you are looking at projects that can address those issues. So as I said before, the watershed analysis that we have done, some of those are fairly old. And it goes back to the 90s. Currently, the analysis and the rate study puts at a level of service C,. Level of recommendation level service B, the plan to move forward to get to that be level was to perform to watershed analysis stormwater basin management, excuse me. Stormwater analysis plans twice a year, two a year, update or create the ones that have not been looked at yet. Regulatory compliance will sub this is the second section of our utility. Basically, this is what we do to ensure that we are meeting all of the current regulatory requirements through our NPDES (unknown name) a storm permit. It is what we call it. That is a lot to get out. It also means we have to comply with all of the TM DO requirements. We have 12 adopted TM DLs that impacts Volusia County. That is six basin management action plans that affect Volusia County, of course we have a reasonable assurance plan. All of those in part Volusia County. We have obligations that we have to meet and regulatory requirements but we have to abide by. That is part of what we do in the stormwater (indiscernible). The O4 evaluation, it was included, this portion of it was included in the program management, we have since broke it out because it is a bit more of its own thing with all of the water quality issues. Recommended level of service see, we are at a level of service B. This updated rate study recommends that we stay at a level of service B. O and M, operation and maintenance, this is maintaining the system we have. Pipes, ditches, inlets, all of the infrastructure in the grounds that we need to move stormwater, get it to where it needs to go to minimize flooding. I am sure each and every one of you has sent me a request from citizen pertaining to drainage, obviously since the hurricanes, folks are concerned and want to make sure their systems are operating properly. And then the overvaluation, level of service C. We have -- improve that to a level of service B. When we combine inferring the drainage task team, we had 52 full-time equipment positions in the drainage task team. We are currently just over 54. We have some position, that is why you see the decimal point. So, in that timeframe come in the 15 years we have increased roughly 2 positions, yet we are doing, maintaining more assets. We are doing more work. With roughly the same amount of people. How we are doing that, we are more efficient. We have gotten more efficient. That is how we have been able to improve our level of service and that is how we are able to do that with roughly the same amount of people. One thing that the rates study announced is that even though we are roughly the same amount of people, personnel costs have increased. Salaries have gone up, insurance, benefits, all of those things have gone up in those 15 years. In order to continue to maintain that level of service B, which again, is routine maintenance, inspection based, summary action area, so it prevents large problems. It prevents us running around with our hair on fire trying to prevent drainage issues with pipes collapsing and things like that. In order to maintain that level of service B, we'll have to maintain that service just due to common (indiscernible). Finally, our capital improvement plan. We looked at it in 05, we were at a level service D and to get to a B in the fully funded capital improvement plan it is taking the money we have for capital and leveraging the money through grants from DEP, the state and feds and so on to get those stormwater projects. We have been successful in doing that. Our typical plan for doing a capital project is we get it design and shovel ready whether it is water quality or flooding there is all kinds of money available from the state for those kinds of projects. If we can develop a project that includes both water quality and flooding, you can access both pots of money. Level of service B means were not fully funding the projects with stormwater utility money and we know as staff that this level of service we have to go out and reactive and get the grants which we have been successful doing. Right now we have been spending $750,000 on capital to get that level of service. Cause have gone up and we need to spend roughly $2.05 million to get to that level of service for capital. This is a summary of where we are at endless the dollar values of where we are at now versus where we need to be to get to the level of service. And basically, you are looking at a total difference of revenue from what is currently anticipated at $5.8 million to 9.1 million. This is straight out of the budget book, the current financial health with no change in the revenue and we are looking at fiscal year 26, we are basically running a deficit in the stormwater utility plan. Moving forward, at the Council's direction currently we are at the six dollar and 50 ERU, the monthly rate. And based on the maximum that was set back in 05 the Council can go to eight dollars without a public hearing. In order to go above that, staff would have to provide notice of a public hearing and send out like you would on any assessment on your tax bill. To go above the eight dollars. Happy to answer any questions you might have. We have the consultants that perform the study if you have technical questions. JEFFREY S BROWER: Councilman Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: I have commented not questions, I will wait. JEFFREY S BROWER: Do you have a question? TROY KENT: I have one question, the slide talking about pollutants, it made me think back about some information we received from dream green Volusia with the project that they participate with the city of Holly Hill where they have a device that catches... SPEAKER: Water goat. TROY KENT: For me, when I think about a picture thinking it speaks a thousand words, that one does. Can you tell me, how feasible would it be for the county to take the lead in implementing a plan like that in all of Volusia's similar waterways. So we could take the lead and hopefully get other cities to jump on board as well. SPEAKER: Does a good job of catching litter essentially that... We have installed similar, the water goat is a net that stretches across a ditch. It is, it requires a decent level of maintenance and they go on empty it periodically because they got a permit from us to install it. TROY KENT: From what I understand they have to do it manually but they have water coats where you can do it automatically. SPEAKER: We have installed baffle boxes which is a similar situation where the baffle box traps the letter but also has a filtration system in it. It typically focuses on pipes and water bodies where there is no current treatment. That is something we can look at. TROY KENT: That is something I would like for staff to come back to us with a number on what it would cost to implement that. I am very interested in that. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. Just a couple other quick questions, I think you said that if, you need an increase. Costs have gone up. This is just for unincorporated Volusia? So I have to pay it. SPEAKER: Correct. While you don't have to pay your taxes, but there is a consequence for that. (Laughs) JEFFREY S BROWER: it is probably a good idea. I hate those kinds of headlines in the news Journal. Did you just say that we have 16 watersheds and 10 studies and you will do two per year? SPEAKER: We have 11 studies of the 16, the way they calculate the cost associated with getting the studies up-to-date is they are looking at doing two per year. When we do a watershed study generates a series of projects to address water quality and then we would use that as a roadmap to plan our capital from there on out. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. Do we have an option not to do that? Doesn't chapter 9 require us to do those studies and to fund it? SPEAKER: Yes when the utility was implemented in the 90s, they have specifically the comp plan item you are referring to specifically focuses on urban areas. My understanding is that the time it was implemented and that was put in was because, I don't know exactly when DeBerry and Deltona became cities but around that time they were unincorporated areas that were highly urbanized so those were areas that had flooding and continue to have flooding but you are right, there are areas now where there is urbanization that wasn't back then that we probably need to focus on and do watershed analysis. JEFFREY S BROWER: My last question is the same on chapter 9 of the comp plan, 9.1.1.5 says Volusia County shall establish joint working groups composed of the County and its newness apologies for the purpose of coordinating stormwater management programs countywide. Do we have that? Joint committee? See? I work with my counterpoints all the time on stormwater and part of these watershed analyses will include areas that are incorporated and we will want to work on those cities because stormwater doesn't stop at the boundary lines of the city. We will want to work with the cities in those areas where we are doing watershed analysis and I don't want to speak for them but maybe there is partnering opportunities on cost and we have worked with them in the past and will continue to work with them. JEFFREY S BROWER: There is not a formal committee established? SPEAKER: Not to my knowledge. SPEAKER: It has always been ad hoc so for the (Unknown name) canal that was studied in 2010 we partnered with the city in that time it was ourselves and the Department of Transportation and likely Holly Hill and possibly port orange. SPEAKER: And the mosquito (Indiscernible) insurance plan was a group of us. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: Same idea, they were put together on a project basis. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. I believe that we are serious about flooding issues but when I read this, 9.1.1.5 says we shall establish a joint working group and the committee should be charged with avoiding duplication. I would ask that that becomes a very important part of what we do here. I hate forming a committee for the sake of having meetings but this is required. If I understand shall in the law correctly, Volusia County shall establish this joint working group and to work with all the cities, I think it would be helpful. Any other questions? David Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: As the chair was asking, you mentioned two studies per year and is that what the proposal is? How would you prioritize what watersheds get studied first? SPEAKER: It is a combination of multiple factors. Obviously areas where we don't have one would be high on the priority list. Areas with older ones and areas where we have recently experienced significant flooding and things like that. We would get together and take a look and evaluate all the criteria and come up with the ones that we need to focus on first. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any other questions? Then we will move to debate. Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Quick question, I think I know the answers but all ask anyhow. Nova canal being a prime thing, but you mentioned that the water doesn't stop at the end... We have County projects throughout almost every city. Yes? So, how do we get city money to pay for nova canal? I don't want the unincorporated people to have to pay for (Indiscernible) nova canal. How do we get that money? SPEAKER: You come up with a project or have an issue that affects both the city and the county where there is a unified goal to solve a problem which would be the current problem on (Indiscernible) Road with the city of DeLand coming up with a project there. We met with New Smyrna Beach recently about a project (Indiscernible) that affects the city residents as well as County so there opportunities. JAKE JOHANSSON: One thing you brief me on and I went home and thought about it. We talked about it quite a bit today. I don't think anybody says we don't have a flooding problem. We maybe have a little bit of difference of opinion of what is causing it. I go back to your second slide I think and maybe the first... One more down. If someone has an answer or solution bring it forward. The level of service A is about the closest thing I see for a solution, conference of planning. Full CIP implementation. Exemplary permit compliance. Fully preventative operations. 100% routine maintenance. If there's anything more to keep my taxes down it is stop the flooding. So, here we are and maybe not struggling but my words, two in the B, I am all for a stairstep approach to get your (Indiscernible) to be as soon as you can. Let's look at getting A until we solve the problem and if it takes $16, by golly let's do it. If this could put a dent in the flooding issues that we are seeing, guard us of the reason, regardless. Sea level rise, climate change, development, it is all probably coming anyhow. We have a flood of water, a flood of sea level rise and a flood of people coming. We have to balance all those and that is one way to do it. I will be very supportive of and incremental increase in stormwater costs and I will advocate with the cities to start raising theirs to be at a level A as well. So we can leverage the monies for projects with capital projects that will triple our money. Two bucks will get me six? I'm a big fan of that stop and I know St. John's water management District and the state will back us up all the way because they are looking at us all the time. And we can keep our head in the sand and taxes low and complained but I am not that kind of guy. So, let's get to B and go beyond that. That is my comment. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any other comments or questions? Troy Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you, chairman. So, Councilman Johansson, I think really your comments are pretty spot on with where I am as well. I make no mistake in saying that this is a tax on our people as well. It is. And it tends to hurt those that are the most needy. That does not escape me. When we are making heavy decisions like this. But it also does not escape me that prior elected bodies will sometimes go years or decades without making small, incremental increases. And then you are hit with, "hey, we are in a crisis situation and we will increase everyone's rate to an astronomical number." And that does not feel good. So, I am with Councilman Johansson in that this level D is nonsense, even level C. And I think it is a lofty goal, Jake. To get to a level A. I think it is -- an appropriate goal for Volusia County, I think it helps lead the way and take charge for the other 15 Municipalities in Volusia to follow. I think there is real dollars in the state that we can leverage at the state level for many projects that will alleviate flooding, clean up our water. And these are all positive, good things, for our communities. I am for small, incremental increases. So, you are going to get a yes out of me, counsel. With making a small, incremental increase. And then making sure we are on schedule to continue to do that until you are all at a funding level, George, to where you feel comfortable that we are not falling behind. Because to build something and not have a plan, we talked about it with Dr. butterball here. I asked every single one of them except for the one Danny jumped on me with, which I liked by the way. About whether there was a plan. Meaning, do you have a plan to keep this going? To build something and not have a feasible plan. It is like having your house and not putting money aside every paycheck, so guess what, you will need another roof. In your error can sit -- condition system will break. And you better have a plan for that. This County government better do the same thing. We better have a plan in place and we cannot go to our residents and hammer them with a huge increase. I will never vote for that. But you will get small, incremental increases out of me. Because I think it is the prudent, right thing to do. Does that give you what you need as far as what you need direction from counsel. Or do you need a number? SPEAKER: Like I said, we can go to eight right now. If that is the Council's decision. JEFFREY S BROWER: We are at 650 now. We need to talk about that because that is a bit of a big shot. SPEAKER: I'm giving you the maximum we can go to right now, anything above that, if you wanted to do a phase-in, we would have to come back. We can set a maximum and then set a phasing plan where we go up a bit each year. SPEAKER: Counsel, I will not be a hard know on the eighth right now. But I think we went from 6 to 650, is that right? And I was (indiscernible) about $0.50. So, now we are looking at a buck 50. So, I am not saying that I am a hard know on it, I just might need a little persuasion. Thanks. JEFFREY S BROWER: So, you do not come up with the number? So, I will support you on that. But I would support it under this condition: I think we have to have an increase. Santiago at the last meeting asked that (unknown name) given the task of looking at stormwater. We are all talking about it, we know how heavily reported it is, and you cannot do it without funds. I would support that, Troy, even at 8 if you will assure me that, I mean, I am looking at chapter 9 again of our drainage element, comprehensive plan. This is written by our own staff who we all agreed are capable people that we trust. It is a really good document, but it is… We are not doing it. We are not doing everything it says. Maybe it is money. Because on -- almost every point in it says shall, shall fund, shall complete, if we would do this, and it does not specifically say that the city's help fund bears. But I think that is what it is alluding to because especially where it is alluding to where the county works with the cities, we all know it we are doing, there is a permit tracking system, we are all working together. The cities would fund their part, we find our part, I think. Maybe George or the attorneys can set me wrong. But it looks like a process that we are all doing together, and that is the only way we are going to solve the flooding problems. I mean, you spend time on it every single day. With flooding somewhere. So, if we would follow chapter 9, and do what it says, I think I would be willing, and I think you said you were going to do that. You're going to do two studies. SPEAKER: Yes. I mean, this… Plan calls for two studies to be updated. Or created a year. And so, that is what we would immediately start doing. JEFFREY S BROWER: That would help us and what we just went through with previously on almost every development thing item that comes up where we are being asked to change. If we had this information, what is the stormwater management plan? How does it apply here? Is there any place to put it? It would allow us to vote a lot -- with a lot clear conscience. At least it would mean. So, Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, chair. Councilman Johansson, everyone, you are making really excellent point. We should be striving for that B and A ultimately. I want to bring up something interesting here, I have been thinking about it. In the last several years, actually since 2021, actually far beyond that and prior criminal they have offered to pay raises and dissenters across the board for all of our law enforcement and employees, we have dedicated this counsel and prior have dedicated themselves to double digit increases to our law enforcement record level funding levels but I do not think many in central form -- Florida or the state can compare with. We have the limitation of amendment 10, we have the beach transitional costs, all with one thing in common. With lowing our millage rates and tightening our belt, that is how good our staff is at saving money. There is double-digit millions and millions. We were able to do all within our taxing, our current taxing rate. Ultimately, every with everyone up here and what they said. But my first option would be, we have, in my opinion, some of the best staff possible to look at and analyse how we fund this. Let's try to exhaust that first before we go for an increase. Now, if we have to do something incremental, so be it. We have an election here coming up. We have record inflation. Throughout this country. Inflation areas spending throughout this country. We could be all in much greater trouble, economic trouble, in the next four years if things do not change at the national level. To put additional money without exhausting some of these other areas first, I feel more comfortable if we looked at that. If that makes sense. And let our staff go to work to see what kind of money we could kick up without putting another possible monetary burden on our people. If that does not work, guys, or if we cannot find a funding source, another thing up my sleeve I was going to bring up and cancel comments, then so be it. We can look at it. I would definitely give these guys an opportunity to do it. They have done it every year with some major, major things in the past few years here. All with lowering our military, where we do not have to put additional tax burdens on the people. If you could just consider that, I will back you up with whatever direction you would like to go. JEFFREY S BROWER: That is a great idea. County manager wants to speak up, but I think that, George, Ben, you will have to be clearer. Because I think what you are telling us is that you have done that those of you have done the savings. You are looking, you need an increase now. SPEAKER: Yes, that is exactly right. Take your applied chart back up there. You could see how the money of operation and maintenance. I want to start there. Because that is where I think we have really done almost miraculous job in really asset management for what we have out there. But you know, you had an earlier eye, that we were talking about the development of North city. About potential for flooding. If there will be any fix anything, and you already have development and in these areas, this is the pot of money. That it comes out of. So you know, where we are right now, if you take a look, most of the stuff is maintenance, repair edge… Mechanical 13%. Install drainage pipes. So, there may be a new 11%. Replacing driveway pipes, 7% for supper tension area maintenance, 6%. All of these pipe drainage. So, you see how it is broken down, almost all of those IMs are maintaining and repair. What is there. Because this system has grown. Because of the studies and stuff that were done back in the 90s, and those projects were taken on and those canals were taken on. So I just want to point that out. We are pretty much -- we have pretty much used up. What you are looking at what I am trying to say is that we need some extra money. We can afford to do the studies, because we are using up all of the money now. On the operation and maintenance just to keep our heads above water. The only reason we have not been here earlier is because when we did get Covid money and (indiscernible) money and things, we use some of that money in the stormwater programs. I think it was mentioned earlier about in one of the cities having a dedicated millage or something that were to money for match just for Echo. Well, that is what we are saying here. We need some money to match to go after the remaining grants for the DEP and other things that are out there. If we do not have the money to match, then you are not going to get the prize. And it has only gotten more expensive. And going to these neighbourhoods where the county, older development, is meeting up against new developments. You're probably going to be talking (indiscernible), buying land which will be expensive. Developed land. It happens to be the same land. You have the high lands that actually have capacity. So, you will be buying those lands for retention plans and things that are not there today. Retrofitting a neighbourhood, which I have done many times, it is an expensive proposition. So, it will have to get done. In all of these areas. Again, that is all flooding. I have not touched on the water quality part, that has even made new strides with the mosquito Lagoon. But there is literally every lake and stream and everything around the county or roadsters directly drain or area drain into those bodies of water. We have to clean. It is a requirement now. So, those baffle boxes you mentioned, they are no joke. They often require sheet pile and dewatering and sediment correctly. Again, all expensive things that have to get done to maintain really just the permit that we are supposed to have out there to operate even our road system today. SPEAKER: Two quick points. So, talking about being efficient, some of that extensive technology. So, it used to be that if we had a failing metal pipe or something like that we would rip it out of the ground, you would have to put the road back and everything back, well now we can line pipes. And it is minimally invasive. So, it is considerably less expense. We (indiscernible) our system to see if there is issues and kept them before they are a larger problem. As Mr. Recktenwald mentioned, when they sent the rate back in 05, water quality was not even something they thought about. The TM DLs and all of the regulatory requirements associated that we have to meet the stormwater projects that we have implemented recently to clean up stormwater going in and the mosquito Lagoon and other places. Were not even contemplated when the even said that six dollars. SPEAKER: Let me just add another part of this. We talked about this, too, and they are related because it is an operating system and it overlaps with the road system, which has a big, strong water element to it. Our gas tax, which we also operate our road system off of has remained flat. So again, we have added miles of road are taken on road or had to further maintain roads and ponds and we do not necessarily have that money, you know, we have to balance between data and stormwater. If we have may be more road money, we get take care of those systems. Maybe that percentage of cleaning roadside ditch mechanical could go down somewhat. And be used on other projects. Again, really getting squeezed in public works. And our operation and maintenance. That is why so much effort has been put into efficiency and asset management, they do, they are constantly trying to squeeze more out of, you know, we are really a flat revenue source. That is a whole other area, but the revenues, we don't see them going up. Again, you've got impact fees that pay for the growth or attempt to, they have to be part of the new capacity that are added into systems like road systems but you know, we have to deal with the issues that are already there. So even earlier, again, you were talking about a subdivision and you are going to put a be 10 homes into something that is really infill if you look around. There are many lots and unfamiliar with the area. There may be flooding issues, that is a high sand area but if you want to do those things, it will still require stormwater work to make them work and I think that is again, why we are asking for at least an incremental increase starting now and we really do need some direction sin because we are as we speak putting together the budget. So knowing what the revenues would be would be very helpful. MATT REINHART: Thank you chair. You said it, the question was asked a little while ago, other resources it find other ways in resources to fund this and stay away from taxing individuals. Maybe the possibility of leftover money and we did that like George has reflected. We ran out. Or we are coming to a point where we have to find other resources. We can continue to kick that can and find other resources. You've done the work. You have looked into it, there is no other way. We want to be able to control the flooding issue now. We've got to start somewhere. You've got to start sometime and it has to be now. Water quality. There are a lot of projects and we are smiling because there is a project we are working on elsewhere, with water quality at the jail that we are doing. We have to wait till funding becomes available from that federal grant but if we get it. We have to start now. Everybody says it's going to take so many years to do that, you've got to start somewhere. Baffle boxes, water goats, all these things cost money. You said you have increased only two positions in the last several years that you are able to accommodate but at some point... And then you are going to need assistance with that, money and increase staff. One thing coming up that we have to find the funding for, SunRail. That is going to cost us. We are trying to find ways to fund it. So, where do we start with this? This is a big issue as well. I will tell you right now based on that I am in favor of the increase of the scheduled increase. We've got to start somewhere, we can't just worry about this later and say bring it back to us and see if you can find another way. Six months from us, bring it back to us and see if you can find another way because we want to keep the military or taxes down. Flooding is an issue that we have to address now. TROY KENT: Thank you but because both the jail and SunRail were brought up in the same comment. I'll bring up my idea of beach driving but I came with a plan that brings 7 million new dollars to the county with the plan. George, what I hear you say but what I didn't hear you say is that you are ringing the bell. This is serious. If we don't make a change in the very near future, it will become more serious. So, when I hear that we are ringing the bell, something needs to be done. I already mentioned to you guys that I like small, incremental increases but it needs to be on the calendar every year until we get to that Mr Johansson level of A we are talking about. We don't put aside, we say we need to keep this in the rearview mirror and make sure we are addressing it from time to time. Counsel I'm not there yet unless someone can convince me with the eight dollars but I could go to the 750, dollar increase. I will make a motion to go to 7.50 JAKE JOHANSSON: Second, Johansson. TROY KENT: Does not give you and your team the support needed to get us on track with positive increases? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: It gives us a start. I would ask permission to the Council to bring back, if we go for budgetary purposes at 7.50 for this year but before the year is out, I would then bring back a plan for further incremental increases in the following years. If we have them, we can plan off of that and I think that would be a big help. This would be a good help in then we will come back with a plan and part of that can show more specific projects because I think that was a request that I heard as well. And how some of the capital would be spent. TROY KENT: And as a manager, that is exactly what you should be doing. You should come back with a plan for us on the small incremental increases and then needs to be part of the conversation and of course Ryan and our finance department needs to be involved in the conversation as well. And then, we need to make sure we are getting the message out and educating residents as to the why behind this. Because they need to know. There is a reason for this. This isn't just a money grab. There is a bell that has been Wrong and we need to make sure we are properly taking care of our stormwater. When we get to the café, so we can handle the extra water woman know something is coming and we are not allowing residents to flood. That is something we should work with every single resident of Volusia County. Another tool in our toolbelt. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: That is exactly right and we can maybe do a little more presentation on some of the places we actually do that. Where we already are with the previous money where we built the big storm water facilities at Holly Hill and Ormonde border. We draw that down ahead of storms. We have had no problems in that area, those areas. At one time houses had water up three feet into their house so, again, we used money to leverage with FEMA and were able to buy out the houses and put the stormwater facilities in place. I will say the canals, for a little plug in here, because the canals basically drain the cities and this is a stormwater utility that is in the unincorporated. That is why you see the other chart that has the acreage and what we take a look at is how much is in the unincorporated and how much in the cities, that is where we need city cooperation in those canals while we are charged with maintaining them, a lot of them are maintained through the mosquito control fund because they are maintained for mosquitoes to keep flow through there which is important so they don't breed. But they are not funded by stormwater utility because stormwater utility is fully unincorporated. That is an issue down the road on the canals, we will need more help from the cities and to work together because they depend on the canals to drain their development. So, that is something again I think some of the talk you are speaking about Mr chair, some standing committees to be broke down years ago because no one was wanting to work with us. We certainly did have them for the... The latest one being the reasonable insurance plan. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you. I looked at this 7.50 motion, and George would take anything and say thank you but if I think I read into more and not putting words in his mouth I think he needs more. What does 7.50 get us? It is a tough question to answer I'm sure but... SPEAKER: Go to the budget, it puts our revenue between seven and eight... It's about a $750,000 increase, if you go to the budget, I would point to is if you look... DAVID SANTIAGO: Can I pause you? I would rather approach this from what are we going to do? I don't want to just throw money. If I say I will give you $5 million, Ben, what would you do with the $5 million? SPEAKER: We are going to immediately... DAVID SANTIAGO: I support the increase but I think it should be higher. SPEAKER: I understand. Immediately we are going to figure the rate study figures about 1/2 million dollars a year to do the two study updates. 250 per study. If you look at the basins they are large and I think Daytona, the city of Daytona beach is 70 mi.² and we have basins that are 160 mi.². Our studies are considerably more expensive than the master plan for the city. We are immediately starting at the studies underway and then from the studies, there is going to be a series of projects that are going to get generated. We will take that capital money and we will use that money to design and permit some of the projects. And we will use a shovel ready project and go to the state money, we've got a project and we've been great partners in the past and they will literally call us sometimes when other municipalities there with the projects and the money raised up because they know we can spend it and get it built on time on budget. That is exactly what we would do. DAVID SANTIAGO: The 750 get you a little, as far as money, get you a little bit more than two studies. SPEAKER: A little bit more than two studies but I have the other problem with the regular operation and maintenance and we are still running a deficit. DAVID SANTIAGO: That is where I am going. It gets us two studies but you can't do much work. Additional for it. I struggle with that because, not from a staff perspective but from decision-making perspective because flooding has been what we've discussed most of the time appear. Everybody in Volusia County knows we have to deal with the problem and why will we throw nickels at it if we have staff that has a plan ready to execute projects, I get it. It costs money to do things and you know I've been in support and illuminate things and we've done that but I've done those because I supported those because they were a waste. And we need the money. And I'd hate to see other storms come through and we only through a dollar 50 at it. At a minimum, I even think eight is a little too small but if we can get the eight I think we should go at least to eight and immediately implement the ordinance to allow for incremental increases. Let's tell Volusia that we are serious about flooding and it costs money to do the project. I will be right there with you when we go into the budget. Where are other ways are where we charging taxpayers things that we shouldn't. I am in the fight but this one we've got to be serious about it and put some real money behind it. I think 7.50 is way too low and I know there is a motion and second but I am going to vote no on the motion because I think it is too low. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Just then, walk me through what we talked about it a little bit but walk me through, I don't want the unincorporated folks to be paying for the mosquito control stuff and all that stuff in the cities without support. How do we crack that nut? SPEAKER: The mosquito control is an interesting subject. Since that time, as urbanization has occurred, they have essentially in a lot of ways become stormwater conveyances for stormwater insidious. Currently, the maintenance of those canals is paid for, the stormwater folks do it but there is internal transfer from the stormwater to track all those costs and know exactly what it is costing. It is roughly 7-$800,000 a year. And the mosquito fund includes the mosquito control district, it includes city and... Inc. So, to dissuade your fears as to whether or not it is incorporated person who is paying for the canals, it is not the case. JAKE JOHANSSON: But what about, if the canal needs to be reworked from the counties perspective to handle more floodwaters in a flood... SPEAKER: Let me use a different one because the states issue... use the B19 canal. JAKE JOHANSSON: Perfect. SPEAKER: If there was an issue with the B19 canal, you know, that canal takes a lot of stormwater runoff. Portions of that canal did not exist prior to the 1950s or a lot of it. It was literally dog for mosquito control purposes. So, you know, if there was a big project associated with the canal, it would have to come from mosquito canal. I would like to work with the facilities that contribute to the stormwater runoff. We get lots of calls, you get lots of calls. "Hey, the canal behind my house is not the best looking." We respond with we maintained the canals for flow, not aesthetics. We do routine maintenance to make sure there is flow but there is a lot of stormwater tickets put into the canals that come from cities who have their own stormwater. JAKE JOHANSSON: I am stuck and counsel member Santiago brought it up, I am stuck on this slide that is labeled 10-5-14. We are... there is a motion right now for 7.50 and you are saying 8.25 not get you where I just told you to go. $12 will get you there. So, if we back down the hatches and tighten our belts and squeeze blood out of the turnip and put in a set of overalls and take his birthday away, we can probably do it for 11 months. So... so we're still not there? SPEAKER: I think a good recommendation is, you know, as I explain to Mr. Santiago – what is the plan? There will be a lag. You've got to do the study and develop. JAKE JOHANSSON: I have got that and I know you have a list of projects. SPEAKER: We have water quality projects as well. There's going to be a lag so I think the incremental increases are appropriate in the sense that some of that capital, some of the capital projects will not come for two or three years down the road. That is when we will need the money to hit the project tired. The stormwater utility, I am sorry. The basin studies. We can start right away. And then those projects will be, you know, identified and then designed and built. You can see there is a progression there in terms of revenue that would be required. You know, we will take whatever counsel decides to go with. I think there is a deficit, you know, not just in the studies in the capital but a deficit in oncoming maintenance. We will do what we can learn and we are striving, we have improved dramatically from where we were that we would not like to regress. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it. And my last question/comment is as we move into the budget process and county manager had spoken about wanting to bring an incremental approach, can we include so it is kind of a collaborative effort with the mosquito, mosquito control fund as well? Kill two mosquitoes with one stone, kind of and put it together? SPEAKER: Absolutely. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, Ryan, can I borrow you for just a minute? We can tagteam best. Dynamic duo! Ryan, thank you. Real quick, can you explain the health of the MST fund and what... would it pay for some of the best? SPEAKER: So the municipal service district fund has an overlapping tax base of the storm water fund and his unincorporated area. In the past, before some of the recent actions that had been taken, it could have been possible if you were OK from a political standpoint taking unallocated dollars to do stormwater. It could have been possible to do the transfer. At this point, this is the Fund from where the communication service task used to go. That was a $3 million a year loss to that fund. In the few look at the surplus it was generating, it was less than $3 million. We are looking at a deficit in the municipal service district fund. So between three out of the last four years of municipal service district, the business tax received repeal and that municipal service district fund has had a lot of revenue loss to it which have been tax savings to the same residents who will be facing any of these increases with storm water. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you. The point of that question was to make sure we are not being counterproductive in what we are doing. Here we are trying to go to savings but now we are taxing them in a different way to make up the revenue. That leads me to my other question here. What is the difference, Ryan? A Volusia County residents paying 100% of Best Buy incremental increases before and I am in the street here in favor of sales tax. What is the difference between 100% of Volusia County residents pain incremental increases versus an incremental sales tax where residents would pay for a portion, possibly pay for a portion of this and take some of the burden away from our residents? Does that make sense? SPEAKER: There are a couple things I would answer that was. DANNY ROBINS: And trying to figure the best route here. Because I do not want to be counterproductive and I do not want to put the whole burden on our people when, if there is a better option, it looks like we will possibly make this increase anyway. If there is a way for visitors and out-of-towners to also pay for this and relieve the taxpayers, if that makes sense? SPEAKER: I think there are numbers out there that have been quoted and I do not remember off the top of my head how much sales tax has paid for visitors versus locals. So there is a difference there were maybe visitors could help pay for part of it. However, I point out that sales taxes for infrastructure which would only be the P's of this equation. It would not be the operating deficit that we are seen come up in the future as far as maintaining that system. DANNY ROBINS: So it would take, I don't know what the answer is and I do not know if you know. Would it be safe to say it would take some of the burden and incremental increase and reduce it if there was another mechanism? I am just trying to make sure people are aware and I am trying to get my thoughts out in the correct manner and be safe about it as well. I want to squeeze this as most as we can. SPEAKER: If you had a sales tax that could pay for infrastructure, is stormwater part of the schematic SPEAKER: Specifically water quality project as well as what was proposed before. If sales tax can only cover infrastructure, you are looking at 2 million of the 9.2 million that was recommended. If you drop it to 7.2, you are still looking at a differential of $4.4 million. DANNY ROBINS: So counsel, what is the better taxing option? I don't like them all but Mr. Kent brings up an excellent point and David brings up an excellent point. Chairman, Jake, I think these are all valid but how do you word that? You know, how do we want to word this thing? We are still... you get the point. SPEAKER: Can I ask a question, Mr. chair? JEFFREY BROWER: Go ahead. DAVID SANTIAGO: Danny, Hugh, intention with the questioning. Can you explain the possibility of exploring a referendum to impose or if the people want to do a stormwater increase in the sales tax and something to offset the schematic DANNY ROBINS: I don't know enough about it, David but I don't want to make this tomato, tomato. I don't want to tell the citizens we are not taxing them but we are taxing them. Is it better for visitors to pay for abortion to alleviate instead of putting 100% of the burden on residents? Is there a better way? Something doesn't feel right. DAVID SANTIAGO: You caught my attention because some of the comments that Jake was making and the County manager was because of the way this is interconnected, the city is also should have a potential share in this. We may be taking the entire burden but if we go down the path that you may be suggesting, it might... everyone may share it, including tourist. This is what you are saying. DANNY ROBINS: How do we make tourists pay? That is the whole economic driver here. We should be making outsiders pay and bank our quality of life better at the home to take the burden off. DAVID SANTIAGO: I am open to this conversation, it is a worthy one. But if we go there needs to be very narrowly defined because of failures in the past. I will stop there, Mr. Chairman. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, quick question. You said you would immediately start to study. Do you know where they are? The top two priorities? If you want Don's vote, it is going to be (Indiscernible) lakes. SPEAKER: That is one of the ones we don't have, (Name) Creek is water that we do not have a study on. I don't have an exact answer for you or a prioritization list. You would be giving way to one have not had a study and areas with recent flooding. JEFFREY BROWER: We put a lot of water into that chain. SPEAKER: Correct. JEFFREY BROWER: One other thing, you mentioned the canals and complaints about aesthetics. That is often a positive, you are keeping the canals clean for flow or functioning for flow. But the weeds and the bog plants growing alongside one of the key ways that helps clean that water as it is flowing and where it is going. SPEAKER: Not only that, it anchors the bank and prevent erosion. We are big fans. JEFFREY BROWER: So I do not want to see you clear cut every canal, all the time. Those plants are really important. OK, I am going to leave it there for now. David? DAVID SANTIAGO: We have a motion, please? JEFFREY BROWER: We have a motion for 7.50. DAVID SANTIAGO: I would rather share that and make it higher, I will vote no on that unless we increase it. JEFFREY BROWER: I will entertain that, I am not with Mr. Robins yet with the sales tax. The reason for that and I do not want to harp on this but I am going to. If everybody would read this chapter 9, it is not an inspired document. It is not the Bible but it is pretty darn good. And I think in there, it would allow us to join with the cities to help pay for their share of storm water. If it is not going to, it is not going to put the entire burden on unincorporated Volusia County. There is a lot here that our staff wrote to and I think if not this counsel, the previous Council approved the drainage element. That is one that just got approved. Before we consider a sales tax, we need to do what we have in hand here and I think that springs the risk or the burden around... Jake Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: I have a few comments. First of all, we got rid of the communication tax, we got rid of the BTR. And I think that is very important because no one was getting anything out of that. We were getting money, a little bit of tracking the BTR, in my opinion. So something that the public did not want – they no longer pay for. So, we saved them money that they do not want to pay. I would opine that they want to pay for storm water. To be direct this money, not to say we will never ask for it again but to say now we want it back in a fee to pay for something that you have beat us over the head with every day. So, I think that is the first point. Regarding the sales tax and I think it is 60/40, 60% us, 40%... tourists, if I recall. But, we can, there is nothing preventing us from lowering our stormwater fee. Correct? You can raise it, we can... there is no referendum to lower it. No public hearing to lower it. So I don't want to wait for us all to figure out whether or not we are going to do a sales tax increase to increase this. I want to do it now, I want to do it to the max as possible. The fact that we cannot even get to B with what we can do today is embarrassing. It is embarrassing. So, we need to work hard to get to B and I think if we can convince the public... It is almost a little bit of pressure. We are going to increase your fee, but I will tell you how to get rid of that for you, we will do sales tax and convince them to pay for the sales tax. So, there may be some, to quote my favorite president in that... The task at hand, we need to go ugly, get up to speed, get to the line of sight B and have George and the team come up with a plan to get to A and fix our problems. With whatever funding that we can use. So, thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Things, we will try to move quickly through the last two, we have members of the public who want to speak who I think are getting ready to leave. Troy Kent? TROY KENT: Thank you Mr. Johansen, I love that you quoted strategically, I wish you quoted it with you do not have to be in Washington, DC to do the work. You have things like facsimiles and phones. That was the other part of the whole thing. On a more serious note books I did not know this would morph into a conversation about a possible conversation about sales tax, I will now quote the great (name) from the movie Zoolander who says I feel like I am taking crazy pills. Like, what? This conversation about sales tax where our visitors are going to pay for it because who else pays for it? You do, with everything we buy. We are already taxed enough. I am a hard know on the sales tax idea and Volusia County residents came out loud and clear a few years ago and were a hard know with that as well. If we went to $16 from 6.50 right now, it would sort of solve the problem. I am not your guy for that, I am not voting for that. I am not voting for 10, I am not voting for nine. I will go up about, I would love to say I am with you and would go to eight. I would love to say that but... and 7.50 is not anything what they need we make a plan for this is brought up every year until we get you where you need. Because this is a tax on our residents and I would rather us take this from them in incremental pieces instead of one big wallop, here we go, this is what we expect from you. I can't do that and I will not sit here and put the blame on former councils. Because the majority of us have been together for 14 months and sending a pair for 14 months. Two of us have been here for 38 months. There were other councils that made these decisions, these policy decisions. We cannot fix that, we will go forward from here and I am in for a buck increase and then come back and talk about this before the year is up about the other increase we need to do. Then on an annual basis, I am here with you but I cannot do more than that right now. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Dempsey? DON DEMPSEY: Any of that money go towards infrastructure? Does any of that spillover into this? SPEAKER: We will be cementing for projects, some capital projects that we have. But some (Indiscernible) will be there as well for best money. DON DEMPSEY: We have 50 million for HUD and other accessible. SPEAKER: It is the same as 42 million for resiliency and 50 million for infrastructure. But that will be competition, if you all for lack of a better term between us and cities and other various nonprofits. Have some projects we are submitting for but some can be used for capital and other operational maintenance. DON DEMPSEY: So most likely, some of it at least will spill into funding. SPEAKER: But again, there is no guarantee. That is short-term funding but yes. The extra 50 million we were pushing forward help so much more! DON DEMPSEY: That is all I have, I do feel better! Up the beach, there you go. JEFFREY BROWER: Let us hear from the public. I kind of, as we go along, I have kind of dispensed with the questions and two bites of an apple, this is really important. We're talking about raising a fee or tax and this has been a healthy debate. I appreciate everybody's input. We have three members of the public and if anybody has something to add after that, I will give you the opportunity. Dana McCool? Followed by Jacquelyn Clark followed by Jack Nicholson. SPEAKER: Thank you, Dana McCool, Florida and as representation of my constituency – had this conversation last month about raising stormwater and I was vilified because I stated that without public pressure for the commission not doing stormwater assessment last year. So this year I have tried to prepare the public and I have read all 514 pages of the very stimulating report. I will tell you something I have not heard in this conversation today through all of the beautiful pontificating. Some of the people that contribute to this or perhaps developers. Those are the only people who were not mentioned in this and having a responsible party to this, you know? When we talk about stormwater, we're not just talking about storm water. We are talking about water, period. When you are doing more investigation and thus, when I am talking about having to rationalize to my constituency why this is happening and why we have proliferation – I understand kicking the can down the road and we have the same issues in my town. I would like to see what part of this is caused by inflation, what part of this is caused by growth and development. There is a correlation here with the amount of development going on. I know in Daytona it is. Impervious to systems we have. We talk about the vulnerability and has been kind of neat By Tallahassee as to what we can do for impact fees. It certainly does not stop us from creating ordinances that have our builders, we talk about growth and development, land use, responsible growth and development. Using or having to use more than surfaces that are impervious. These are things I am talking about. How do we mitigate these costs to begin with? This is very, very costly to the tune of $7.3 million is where we are going out Justin Volusia County regarding not from where we are now. Listen, I don't mind set. I have had to educate myself to talk to my constituency regarding having to go up or using a stormwater assessment fee. I understand the cruel reality of where we have to go. It is not that. But when we are talking about responsibility, we need to talk about the third-party here that nobody is talking about. The mistress that is development. We need to talk about it hard and we need it investigated. We are doing it and we will be doing it in our city. You need to do it here, I did not hear one of you talk about what developer responsibility is here. As we move forward, I hope County Counsel kind of lead the way here on holding them responsible. We do this to pinpoint the cause. Because it is important. I know it is here but because is important. Who caused it bears responsibility and we need to find out if that is the case. Thank you very much. JEFFREY BROWER: Jacquelyn Clarke? SPEAKER: Thank you, my name is Jackie Clark, Port Orange, unincorporated Volusia County. Studies. In 2008, Volusia County paid hundred and $40,000 to environmental consulting and technology for an updated study on the B 21 basin, which you never see anywhere, in any of these plans. The B 21 goes from 92 along (Name) Road, (Name) Farms, to 44. The goal of the study was to identify and evaluate stormwater efficiencies and to identify and recommend capital improvement project to address these deficiencies and the primary goal of reducing flooding and improving water, both. None of those were ever implemented. To this day, none of that work has been done. We want to do more studies. The study also revealed that the vehicle and coliform in Spring Creek are likely due to the septic tanks and large animals along Farm Road. Stormwater sits on your postures, soaking up all the maneuvering and drains into the ditches and canals and and staff in Spruce Creek. The DEP has grants for that. If we could stop the flooding and help Spruce Creek, that would be great. Unfortunately the cost of the work back then in 2009 was $1.5 million. I know from the capital improvement budget here, it is never going to happen. I know tonight coming here, it is never going to happen. I would be one of those, I would be thrilled to pay $16 a month. I would do it, my house has flooded twice in less than 20 years. 28 inches. I do not believe it will change anything. Lastly, regarding how funds are allocated, I also went to the entire report and it is interesting to me that right now, 60% of revenue goes to personnel and operating expenses. In 2003, it was 15%. For capital in 2002-2003, it was 45%. Now, it is 12%. What happened? I have huge respect for all of you. And anybody with County staff I have ever dealt with, they have been phenomenal, they are so good. But at this point I have no reason to believe no matter how much money we throw at it, that it is going to get fixed. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Todd Nicholson. SPEAKER: Todd Nicholson, Daytona Beach. Troy, I like you. However, you are sitting there saying that you can't approve an amount that was needed 20 years ago. Things have increased in 20 years. Cost of housing, food, etc. Most of you Constituents no the increase is coming. They are ignorant to sippy in some kind of increase. Everyone in the county has heard about the flooding. Daytona Beach, Port Orange, they know about flooding. They know something needs to be done. Alright? That $0.50, had you increased $0.50 each year, you would be at $15. 50 and $16 and not far apart plus all the money that would have been raised over the last 20 years. Putting things off 20 years before you check on something only hurt you in the long run. Right before you, we have Daytona Beach, we have a 20% increase in our taxes because of it. You guys, when we have the sales tax, we told you guys the impact fees that had not been raised in 17 years was going to bite you and it did and the surveys after the vote impacted. Right? You cannot put this off. If eight dollars was needed 12 years ago, at least 8.15 now, you need to increase in at least a little bit. If you tell the public that we wanted to do it 20 years ago at eight dollars but we were able to, by manipulating keep your taxes down for 20 years, they will understand the need because they know about the flooding. It kind of feeds into it, this is why we are doing what we are doing and we absolutely need it. They understand the need. Danny, thank you for the sales tax. Alright? The day after the vote failed, he mentioned that we needed it. But we have to do it correct way. We are at 6 1/2%. Our competitors are at 8.5%. That was never mentioned. If our people say they don't want to go up because it is too high, but then you say our competitors are 8.5% and we can raise $100 million if we have this many sales tax, you are going to have to pay a penny more when you go to 711. I am sorry, that is not a lot. Unless you are buying a big ticket item, it is pennies. I know it is repetitive and it adds up over time but what we get in return is fantastic. I would recommend a one penny increase, you can do a lot. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you, unfortunately you are out of time. Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: My last bite Mr. Chairman, this is my second as well in the debate. Councilmembers, you know, I am looking at this year and we have a $1.19 billion budget. Can I seriously tell someone, if I had a conversation, that we took what happened in the stormwater on all the impact we had in this county... Could I seriously say we took it serious by raising it by $700,000. When it has been behind for 15 years? I cannot say that with a straight face. One dollar is not enough. The most we can go up right now according to staff is eight dollars but will have different ideas and started talking to different things. I encourage my colleagues to vote this town and let us entertain another motion. Thank you, Mr. chair. JEFFREY BROWER: Vice chair Kent? TROY KENT: Thank you, I don't know you very well but I like you as well. That being said, I am not your guy if you are expecting me to come in here and fixed the mistakes of former councils by not doing small incremental increases over the last 20 years. I am not a tax guy, I am a reduce your tax burden kind of guy. That is with the Council, I think we just heard, we have done with the leadership of several of you. I am not going to come in and say will increase this now by $10. Just for your comment but the penny sales tax, it works well with your narrative when you say this is the penny at 7-Eleven. I don't know what you can buy at 7-Eleven for a dollar anymore because it would be one penny, it would be a penny. I don't know what you can buy because a king-size candy bar is 3.99 now. Now you are looking out for pennies and you have not bought that soda and you did not buy a gallon of milk, you did not buy... it is a huge burden on the everyday people that live here and that is the other side of the story. So listen, counsel, maybe do what Councilman Santiago wants you to do and we tend to agree on a lot of things. I am struggling with one dollar, I am telling you. I am struggling increasing it a dollar. I think it is a step in the right direction and I think we are getting staff a plan in the future to make sure we continue to bring this up and we have this healthy discussion. I heard the comment about it being election season. Two of us are up for election counsel, I want you to know right now, I am not afraid. I am not afraid to do what is right for Volusia County residents. If someone wants to challenge me or beat me up because I want to, in my mind, do the right thing and provide for Volusia County by increasing something like this – so be it. But I cannot fix what prior councils did not accomplish and take care of. They probably had great reasons for that. I am not going to meet anybody absorbing that prior councils. It is what it is, we cannot fix it. We can only go forward, I am good with a buck. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, thank you. I want to amend it to the eight dollars. SPEAKER: It could be voted on if they want to do. SPEAKER: Or the seconder can pull their second. JEFFREY BROWER: I think there is value. I will go back to the drainage element one more time. I think this Council really needs to drill this home, if we pass any increase, we have to take Ben's word for it, he will do the studies. When the questions come up in the government tends to study things to death. There is a trigger and it says Volusia County shall develop a comprehensive service and water management plan within six months after completion and adoption of the comprehensive drainage and water studies. So they have six months to come up with a plan of how we are going to spend the money that may be left over. If we just do 7.50, there's not going to be a lot of money left over. That is the motion on the floor, to increase it to 7.50, motion by Troy Kent. Second by Jake Johansson. If there are no other comments, Chris, please call the role. SPEAKER: Mr. Dempsey? Mr. Johansson? Mr. Kent? Mr. Reinhart? Esther Robbins, Mr. Santiago, Mr. Brower. JEFFREY BROWER: So the motion fails, 5-2. The motion is not passed. Are there any other motions? DAVID SANTIAGO: I moved to increase it to eight dollars. SPEAKER: Second. JEFFREY BROWER: Now the stormwater fee motion is for eight dollars, the motion is by David Santiago, second by Matt Reinhart. Kristin, would you call the role? SPEAKER: Mr. Dempsey? Mr. Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: Yes. SPEAKER: Esther Kent? Mr. Reinhart, Mr. Robins, Mr Santiago, Mr. Jeff Brower. JEFFREY BROWER: Yes, the motion carries 5-2. Thank you. It is a long way to get there. OK. 11. Ordinance 2024, 09-06, sexual offenders place of residence. SPEAKER: Chairman, Mr. Russ Brown, County attorney. Consideration as requested by counsel previously is ordinance 2024 – zero – nine, sexual offenders place of residence. Creating sections 78 – six and the code of ordinance that will prohibit the offender from residing either permanently or temporarily within 1500 feet of any school, childhood facility, designated bus stop, public park or playground in any unincorporated portion of the county. The ordinance would also make it unlawful to knowingly rent a place to present prohibited from a residence located within the 1500 feet of any school, childcare facility, designated public school bus stop, park or playground. Exceptions within the ordinance that went before grandfather persons residing currently within the additional 500 feet. When I say additional 500 feet, currently we have the statute of a thousand feet and this would increase an additional 500 feet in unincorporated area. You have the map in front of you, it is kind of a review, if you will, of what the ordinance in the red, the additional 500 feet so it would look like in comparison. I also have the GLS and OLS manager on staff who can answer any technical questions of what goes into doing those boundaries. There was a report with additional 500 feet and approximately 4.5% of the current dwellings would be removed with this additional 500 feet, if that makes sense. With that, I will answer any questions. 4.5% less dwellings available for offenders to reside in if the additional 500 feet is approved. Of the total percentage available now. With that, I am available to answer questions. JEFFREY BROWER: First, Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you Mr. Chairman and Mr. Brown and staff. Real quick, do we have the available homes that are left after that four point some odd reduction that are available for housing if they do so choose? SPEAKER: I will let him answer that. SPEAKER: So, right now there are about 28,000 dwellings based on partial data. When we look at the analysis here, the impact of what we will reduce in the unincorporated area, the numbers by about 7000. You will be left with about, you know, 21,000 dwelling units across the county or roughly 10,000 dwelling units in unincorporated area. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, that is all I had. JEFFREY BROWER: Don, did you have a question for staff? DON DEMPSEY: Yes, I do. I want to talk to Russ but I will ask you as well. What did you say about statistics? SPEAKER: (Indiscernible) DON DEMPSEY: Yeah, so you are saying this proposal will only cut down the housing 4%? SPEAKER: 4% of the residential parcels and how we arrived there, we used the property appraisals partial code description, single-family, multifamily housing. We basically selected those. DON DEMPSEY: Is it your position that sex offenders are only going to have a 4% decrease in the available housing? Say? If we look at the impact on this, yes. It will reduce unincorporated dwellings available by 4.5%. DON DEMPSEY: CUSA and the rest of the available homes are all available to registered sex offenders? Every landlord out there besides the 4.5% is willing to rent to sex offenders? The? No, all we are saying is this is the impact with additional 500 feet. Not whether there is a willing, I do not know somebody's intent and if they are willing. DON DEMPSEY: Let us kind of get grounded here. How many, just for my background and for everyone else, I have been doing criminal law for 40 years both as a prosecutor and defense attorney. I am against best. The reason being is the criminal justice system has already invited these people to have their freedom to walk amongst us. Our elected judges and state of attorney have evaluated the cases and looked at them. Instead of going to prison, they have reasons that these people have served their time, they have done whatever they had to do and now they can walk amongst us. So now we are creating an additional layer of punishment that we have no business doing. It's come here and say it is only 4% is disingenuous. SPEAKER: Well, let me correct that. We have to operate within the data that we have. I do not know if the property owners with steam the structure to be vacant or want to rent to one of these individuals. Nobody on your staff is going to be able to do that. DON DEMPSEY: Let's do this, we have spoken with, collectively we have spoken with sex offender probation officers. Seasoned probation officers. They said out of the small County, there are only three landlords that will rights to sex offenders? SPEAKER: That was the probation officers indication that there were three and I do know that there are, there were other addresses that were given to us by actually sheriffs. Sex crimes division, there were five and full disclosure, those five that they say are kind of known, multifamily dwelling units to rent, those five would be caught up in this new 500 feet meaning they would be prohibited. I don't know about the other three. DON DEMPSEY: So as part of this study, right now, because of the current laws in our mapping and our registered sex offender registry – we know where these people live. We know where all the sex offenders lead. The sheriff can keep track of where they are and if they leave their residence for more than three days, they need to report and tell us where they are going. So has the county looked at where these current registered sex offenders live and how this new ordinance would affect those people? They would all be displaced, right? SPEAKER: No sir, if you currently reside in a residence and you are registered, you are grandfathered. DON DEMPSEY: OK, let us go five years from now, OK? Let us talk about the children and the environment they will have to live in. OK? Let us look at the next generation. So, it's are those places going to be available for the future sex offenders that are released in Volusia County? Are they going to have the same places to live with the current? SPEAKER: If the Council's decision today is to prove the ordinance and it is still in effect in five years, those residents who reside within the 1500 feet away from the places of ordinance, no they would not be allowed for new residents. DON DEMPSEY: So in essence, with this, there is not going to be anywhere for a new registered sex offender, let us say a year from now to get out? Is nowhere for them to live in Volusia County? Is that fair to say? SPEAKER: No sir, I cannot say that. DON DEMPSEY: The current landlord's leasing to sex offenders? SPEAKER: I cannot say that, Mr. Dempsey. The 5-8 we got addresses from, they are caught up in the additional 500 feet based on what we have been told. But the three probation officers, I did not have those addresses and they were not given to me to run. I did run five with sex crimes unit and I believe that is on the has and they gave me the address and said they would be caught up. DON DEMPSEY: So person can be released from prison and has dispensed the rest of my life as a sex offender, they grew up in (Name) Hill, where are they going to go? Where can the rental place in Volusia County? Based on, as far as you know, and understand you not know everything and I get that. Based on your knowledge from the five landlords, I guess, who do currently rent and you say they are caught up, that means no more new sex offenders on the property. Correct? SPEAKER: Correct, can be registered. DON DEMPSEY: So then what happens is there is no way for us to track where they are living. They become homeless in the eyes of the registry, correct? Three? If they do not have a residence they would be homeless. DON DEMPSEY: Correct so there is no way to monitor their location for the sheriff? Because the five landlords who are renting your registered sex offenders, we can, we know where they are, they have to register. If they leave the location for more than three days, they need to report read they are going. Correct? SPEAKER: They are supposed to. DON DEMPSEY: If they are homeless, then the new guy getting out of prison and released into our community has nowhere to run so he is homeless and he is unaccounted for, correct? SPEAKER: I think, I think... SPEAKER: I think the situation we are in is we now, we only have a certain amount of data that we can operate in. Clearly if this were adopted, this would reduce the number of dwellings that would be available for these individuals. DON DEMPSEY: Reduce or eliminate? SPEAKER: I can't, I don't think we can say eliminate. It is certainly going to make it more challenging to find an available place. It could have the effect of impacting some existing facilities that are focused on providing a home for these individuals. I have also heard in the past, this is been talked about, that if you'd reduce the number of available... when we say available, it could be an occupied structure. It is not necessarily vacant. If you reduce the number of dwellings available, it could result in somebody not able to find a home. I think, to your point, that right now if they have a place and they have registered with the Sheriff's office, you know where they are. DON DEMPSEY: So the point being, we can talk about what-ifs, the reality of today is there is only five known landlords that were even rent. That are renting. SPEAKER: I just want to be clear, I do not have that information. All I have is I was given five addresses of known places that rent to offenders and asked to run those and I did. And those were... we ran them and those five addresses would be within the additional 500 feet. I don't know that those are the only five addresses for multifamily dwelling units that rent to offenders. That is not what I am saying. Additionally, it is a less than 5% reduction in the total amount of units available. I'm just saying, there are others out there. Just like the intent to rent, we cannot say it about 70. We cannot say they will or won't. There are other places based on the numbers that would not be caught up in this addition. DON DEMPSEY: You just said there are five known landlords that rented sex offenders. That you know of. SPEAKER: Five addresses that were given to me by the Sheriff's unit that are addresses that I presume are given to me in bed rent to, that had multi family type of units., My company won't be affected by this? How many current landlords who rent to sex offenders won't be affected by this? SPEAKER: I don't know that number. DON DEMPSEY: So 100% of those five known went towards that wrench to sex offenders will be wiped out. Not for present, not one out of the five. All five are going to be wiped out by the new ordinance. SPEAKER: Five addresses. DON DEMPSEY: Five out of five, that is more than 4%. Do you recall our conversation with the probation officers? They said if this passes, it will basically make them all homeless? SPEAKER: We did have that conversation. DON DEMPSEY: It is true, they said it. And they also said basically once they are homeless, there is no accounting for them and they are basically living in the woods, living downtown on the streets, walking the streets in Daytona, walking through playgrounds. We don't know where they are. Right? SPEAKER: I want to be clear, I think it is not totally appropriate for you to say it. That is not information coming from us. I am not saying it is wrong but they are not here, I guess, to speak to it. It is not enough for you to say it is legislative decision by counsel. DON DEMPSEY: My counsel was that he shared it with us, I am not asking you to trust me. SPEAKER: We will trust you, you do not have to... you do not need to have a witness to substantiate your opinion or information. SPEAKER: But I heard the conversation. DON DEMPSEY: Yes, I am not just making this up. That is all. JEFFREY BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: Russ, we had a conversation last week. I'm going to ask you to recall it because I want you to trust me. (Laughter) JAKE JOHANSSON: By the way, I would like to give a shout out to Troy's parents who are watching. If... I know, maybe five, there may be eight, we can probably find out from the sheriff about these clusters of folks and where they are. SPEAKER: I want to be clear, the addresses are given to me and the Sheriff's office is very cooperative and those are known addresses that were given to me of clusters. JAKE JOHANSSON: If the sheriff has this registry and for people are living in a place, that is good enough for me. So, and... and I think, I think the county attorney brought up and you brought up that there is space in the County where homes may or may not be rentable that these folks could live in. So if we... If somebody comes out of jail and/or the judge says you are now a sexual offender, sexual predator and you don't go to jail. I imagine if you are an offender, you might be but not a predator. Or vice versa. You now need to look for a place and if we approve this ordinance, one place you will not be looking is one of these 5-8 to how many places. You may have a problem finding a rental in clear areas available but now you know where to look. I would hope that there would be some very nice nonprofit who would say these are the places that are offender friendly. But that may not be available right now. So, we are not moving the people in them now out. We are not taking them out. They are not homeless. The people that come out of jail with a judgment against them, currently they are living somewhere, we hope. And do they have a certain amount of time to find a place to live? If they are living with their family or their parents, by the way? SPEAKER: I believe they do, I don't know what the conditions are. I would have to look that up. JAKE JOHANSSON: OK, so in this ordinance, is there any way we can gather the locations for where these multiple people live? And exclude, not the people but the location? SPEAKER: If that is counsel's direction, I would ask to give us time to resurface that issue and get the addresses in cooperation with the chairlifts and probation. Become extra, I am a huge fan of... of these folks clumped together when the sheriff can account for 12, 14, 16 of them in one place. I think why stop at 16 places when you can step out one? From what we have heard from one of the landlords, at least I have via a phone call or a few emails, is that actually she spoke early on. She provides something, support of some sort and checks on them every day. I like a person who cares that much to support those people and who would like to continue that. She and people like her probably are not going to do it in 15 or 18 different houses. Granted, she's probably (Indiscernible) for them and a couple of them have emailed us early on, they have jobs, they work. You would not know until they mentioned that. Right? So, I would love to find a way to carve these places out because I think they are an important piece of our community. And then they can stand kind of come up with a compromise. SPEAKER: Yes sir and if that is counsel's direction, I would ask that essentially... it may be doable, we need to research and I don't have knowledge about this particular impact. We need to take a look at it and in cooperation with various agencies to make sure we get the address the needs to be accepted. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it and if not, George and Mike – can we come up with... if we cannot get there, can we come up with innovative ways to work with people who might be able to develop something in the area that is now qualified? Because what is saying the next counsel in six years does not say man, I want to update to 2000 now. You know? I mean, we're gentrifying left and right and here is another opportunity to do it, I am not a big fan of it. From a development standpoint. SPEAKER: Developing a facility or structures? JAKE JOHANSSON: Allowing it. Because right now, there is... SPEAKER: So the ordinance, you are talking about if something is built after? JAKE JOHANSSON: If we take away these apartment complexes, if we take them away, 5-8, maybe more. You don't know. And there is no place within the one area, can we work with those people to allow them to build or otherwise repurpose buildings in the unincorporated area to allow them? I want the clusters come at the end of the day. Can we move them somewhere? Can we help them with, maybe not incentives but look, this is a good idea over here. I don't know. SPEAKER: I don't know about the exclusion but I will say, this is a moving target. These are bus stops, parks. As you add to them, right? A park opens, it creates a new exclusion area. So we are obligated by the state in the county's comment this is a big West for the group to make sure the sheriff can operate. JAKE JOHANSSON: Great, thank you very much. That is all I had. JEFFREY BROWER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you, you say we have no business doing so, Russ, in your investigation into the subject matter – has society deemed the maximum of 2500 feet statutorily to be acceptable in municipalities and counties? Yes or no? SPEAKER: Yes sir, local governments have 2500 feet. DANNY ROBINS: That being said, I would like to take it to debate and make a motion to approve the additional residency restriction. SPEAKER: Second. After Mike Councilman Robbins makes motion to approve the extra 500 feet and second by David Santiago. I have one quick question before we go to debate. Has the sheriff's office rendered an opinion about this? SPEAKER: They do support the ordinance. JEFFREY BROWER: OK, thank you. Open for debate and we have to remember is in public would like to speak to this. For debate, Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Just to rewind a little bit, overwhelming support from law enforcement, from the sheriff first 35+ years of law enforcement experience and expertise as well as multiple agencies throughout Volusia County that also support this matter but counsel, we have an argument on the table that increase residency restriction will make the homeless population of this sector of people greater and we will not be able to track them down. With not only my years of experiencing law enforcement, I would say that cannot be further from the truth and I will tell you why. Statutorily, they still have to register. You cannot just put homeless with a question and poof, they disappear. It is very serious. For example, on registry paperwork, you need to leave details. You cannot put under the oak tree. And you cannot say homeless. They need to put behind Walmart at 44 and 95. Red tent. OK? They need to disclose, for accountability purposes, any new tattoos, identifying marks, new phone numbers. Right? Social media accounts, credit cards, all of which are tracked through location services through a carrier with computers, IP addresses, stuff attached to your phone. So to sink or to create an argument or non-argument or nonissue that this would be displacing people and we would not be able to create a fear factor and say we cannot track them, that is highly false with technology out here today. We would be highly mistaken if we come in my opinion, believe that. Homeless sexual offenders and predators is actually very rare. You know why? They have every incentive to find a place just like Mr. Brown, were we able to get those pictures with all the dots that we sent to Chris? Chris, can we pull up all the residents? Weather is a well, there is a way. There are over a thousand reasons or proof of that statement. They have every incentive to find a place to stay. If not, it is violation, failure to register and mandatory. I will repeat, mandatory prison. Think about that, who wants to go to prison? Who has ever said, "hey, I want to go to prison." No one ever. Yes, housing is tough. That is the point. If they don't like it, people are going to be upset. I will personally buy them a bus ticket out of town. Thus, I want to be crystal clear, I want folks to know and their families and visitors to know that we will not tolerate or find this behavior acceptable in our community I am not going to count hail or take this lane down and accept this vile behavior. It is not just going to... it is not going to happen. There will be some arguments where they will try to disprove or have a negative, if we look at crime trends throughout the country, the state and even the community where these laws are in place, you will see less repeat offenses, less crime. Why, you may ask? Because they know the consequences where they can move somewhere else. So I think we need to... vote in favor of this but, science dictates counsel that sexual offenders and predators have a tendency and urge to reoffend if they are in an environment where they cannot control their actions. No different than a drug user or akm,j or a burglar or leaving these people unsupervised. They will steal. Science and history shows there will be repeat offenses. The only answer I can come up with is to take that limit or environment greater than what it is. Take it out so we do not need to explain why somebody in their school or community got molested or someone got abducted where someone in their school was a victim of human trafficking or sexual exploitation, or child pornography. Because these heinous act don't just happen. They do not create just one victim, it affects the whole block and the whole community. In some cases, innocent victims become offenders somewhere down the road. And as inconvenience to the Council into the public as this may seem, I want to ask how that is an inconvenience compared to the trauma faced by the victim? DON DEMPSEY: Is a good talking point but I don't see how 500 feet saves that. I don't see how there is logical correlation over 500 feet. 500 feet from a bus stop, really? That is the answer to everything? 500 feet? I have been doing is 34 years and I am questioning, I prosecute these cases, I have defended to the cases. It is funny, everyone checks with law enforcement. Torches and pitchforks, let's get them. Has anybody checked with the local Defense fire or probation officers to ask how this really affects the long term, the reality of this? It is really a good talking point to get out the torches and pitchforks and say to bring them and make their lives as miserable as possible. I am not advocating for that even though they are human beings and the justice system has deemed them to be fat. If they were that that they be imprisoned for the rest of their life. The justice system has deemed them to not be in prison for the rest of their life even though what they are accused of his mandatory life in prison. For some reason they are allowed to walk the streets. So who are we to step on the judicial system? We don't like judges who legislate from the bench but we legislate here to create laws and the judges felt these people were free to walk amongst us under current laws. I guess, here is an article. I am just document tracking these people. Here is an article. This was a couple years ago. Talking about the title of homeless sex offenders become a growing Florida problem. OK? Resident for extent on the sex offender registry are not required to have a permanent address. In one case, a member of the County was listed as living in the woods behind Winn-Dixie. The individual has since moved. The resident said my concern is more for the children, you know, because they are outside. Those with St. Johns County resident. Action news dug through the registry to find that the sex offenders on the registry including two predators listed as transients. Action news, safety expert Dale Carson that is a growing problem and difficult for law enforcement to track these people. We find them living under bridges, on boats, we find them in the community, away from the children but those individuals specifically are very hard to track. In a statement, the St. John's Sheriff office said those who are transient are monitored through creditor watch as well as the FDA portal. Quarterly address verifications are completed for predators in the state is monitored and updated in the predators system. A representative went on to say that the only time a notification is required is if the individual is classified as a predator, the notification must be made by the residents. I will go to the end. Florida Department law enforcement that all transient offenders are required to register the same way as an individual with a permanent address. However, the only difference is these individuals must also check in with the Sheriff's office in person, every 30 days. That is just it. What you get rid of by making these people transient is right now if I live at number one happy Street, and I want to go to Orlando to go to Disney World, I need to tell the Sheriff's office where I am going because I have a registered address and that is where I am going and I need to let them know. If you are transient, you just go. You go to Disney World, go to universal, wherever. Go hang out and they have no way of tracking where you are. As long as you report every 30 days, you are OK. You do not have the same requirements if you are transient as if you have a residence. I want these people to be able to be located at all times. I do not want the Sheriff's office to have to go on an expedition or where's Waldo or where are they? Where in the winds are they? We need to have an address. If they are not at the address and we go by and check in four days and they are not there, felony. I have seen people go to prison for a long time for not being at home after three days and not registering a new location. I have never seen that happen with transient. So I understand why you are trying to be tough on them but I think, it's I think it is going to make it worse for the community instead of better because they will be unaccounted for. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Thank you and Don, and trying to understand and I am not a defense attorney and I do not show a lot of sympathy for some of these acts. I am sorry, I don't. But also I want to make a worthy note that the laws and judges have deemed it acceptable to increase it to 2500 feet. If these laws did not make a difference, why would they be in the books? Think about that. My next motion will be to amend 1000 feet and recommend 2500 feet. I don't want to do that, I think we can get there and add and give one an additional tool. Just like we do, when I was working in narcotics, we did this when it came to drug charges. Increase penalties around the playground with delivery. Churches, schools, day cares. You know why? They work. It is a deterrent. It gives law enforcement another tool in their toolbox to make our community safer. I just do not see a lot of arguments for that. I cannot speak to St. John's or the level of the Sheriff's Department but I can speak to the Volusia County Sheriff's office in local municipalities. These guys are on top of it and we have record funding to make our community safer. I also want to provide them with extra tool. To say that anyone of us would be making the county more unsafe or making these people transient, Don, I do not really agree with that. This comes down to individual responsibility. I did not make them do anything. Our society has deemed certain things to be acceptable and unacceptable. This, whether by plea or trial by jury of their peers, whatever the case may be, that is a decision, however it happened, that they made and have to deal with. Dependent on any vest when public safety is all of our response ability and goal, I do not know if that is much of an argument. There is responsibility that they need to take and society has deemed certain things. Whether there is 1000, 1500, 2000, it is all acceptable by law. And I think that we are off, you know, I don't know what the argument or defense may be or the excuse, why we would not take action to make an exception when it has been proven time and time again at a city level, state level, county level and national level throughout the country. Thank you. It's JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you, we have members of the County who have been made to speak and first we have Jon Nicholson. SPEAKER: Jon Nicholson, Daytona Beach. I understand however I am worried about unintended consequences. It is an emotional issue. When I taught school, we had to be informed when anything affected a student's behavior. If the parents were in jail, if the parent separated or divorced, and if they were molested. Right? Every child that I was informed had been molested was molested by a family member. Only one child, 13-year-old girl, was molested and raped she was a prostitute. That is what she did for a living. She made more money than I did. So, these are not strangers in a community doing this. I think it is 90% of molesters are known to their victims. So, what we are doing here by doing this, we are saying OK, here they can live, when Daytona Beach did this – there is no location whatsoever where they can love because there are schools, churches, and parks everywhere. If you do 2500 feet, is almost a mile. Daytona is only 5 miles wide on the beach side so it is easy to eliminate them. If you looking at, you can literally go to Clyde Morris before they could live. These people, if they come out of jail, they do not have a lot of money. I just found out that the little tiny motel down the street, 1600 a month for 200 ft.². They can move in, it is $5000. How many people can come out of jail with $5000 in their pocket to rent? Most of the places that are relatively cheap will be in downtown. What you have in the unincorporated, those clusters that would have inexperienced or low income properties, they are clustered. They are not going to move in next to you, Jeff. They can afford 400 or $500,000 home? They will not buy out there. What do you have to rent the middle of nowhere? Very few rental properties. No place where you are where somebody will rent a property for five or $600. What you have now done is excluded them, basically, from anywhere in the county. We got sued, as the city, when we are trying to exclude adult clubs. It went so badly that the court said we had to throw it out. We got sued because there were not enough locations. If you say there are absolutely no locations for them to rent in Volusia County – I can imagine the lawsuit. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Julie Martin. SPEAKER: That afternoon, my name is Julie Martin and I have been wanting to sex offenders for 15 years. And I wish this could be a question-and-answer period because I can answer all of your questions. Mr. Robins, I think you are a little misinformed on what a sex offender is. Because it can be a contractor who peed on the side of the road using his truck door. It could be a young man who is sexting his girlfriend. The man or person who committed a horrific crime is not getting out of prison to face these ordinances. He is in for life. The people you are hurting are not the people who made these horrific mistakes. It is unfortunate that they do. But the person ahead of me was correct. Offenders are not violent, extremely likely to use physical violence. That is not who they are. They are conmen. The taking situation and take advantage of it. A lot of times it is family or a neighbor or someone they know. That is why educating our children is so important for them to understand what is right and what is wrong. Adding another layer to them after they have served their time in prison, it's what kind of opportunity did they have? Yes, they made a mistake but if they paid their time in prison, don't they have the opportunity to get out? I probably own all of the properties that you looked at and I could go over them all with you to make it easier on you. I own seven of them in Volusia County. I make sure my guys are doing the right thing, I really do. I don't want them to hurt someone, it is not my intention. But if they are doing the right thing, isn't it better for them to be monitored by me and probation and the state? If they are in the woods, how did they charge their device? If they are in the woods, how are they clean to get a job? They need and opportunity. If you want to take it away from them, they will be desperate and they will want to go back to prison. It happens. They don't want to do, they get scared, at least they have food and they will go commit crime so they can go back. JEFFREY BROWER: Jon Freeman? SPEAKER: Good afternoon. I am Jon Freeman, I was born in Halifax Hospital 68 years ago. I grew up in this area so I am one of those that hangs around. When I was young, my teenage uncle went to Vietnam, died as a teenager within a month of getting there. Shortly after, I went into service at 17 to go to Vietnam. I served until the late 80s. The important thing about that is that after a while, I got out, I lost friends. I had therefore, in my mind, (Indiscernible) to help out veterans that I had met who are having problems and along the way I also served with people coming out of prisons. I dealt wit people who are on sex offender list and what have you. I have an old 76 Peter to drive people to appointments and get groceries and whatever they need to do. I got them to group therapy. One of the biggest problems I have, I also run a prison ministry. It is people, especially offenders getting out and having no place to land. Sure, there are all kinds of houses out there. There are only so many who will open the door to a registered sex offender. If you start cutting down the number of houses, it significantly reduces the number of people who can rent to sex offenders. I know Thomas Jefferson spoke about life. That was the very first thing in the Bill of Rights, life. Maslow said that is one of the basic needs people have, a house or a roof over your head or food and safety from the elements, what have you. If we start cutting away sections because we want to say we don't want you in our area, aren't you saying we do not want you in our area so we will do what we can to squeeze you out of the area? I have seen people working doggone hard trying to do assessments, jumping through all of the hoops that they need to do for probation and what have you. I know some of them live in the woods. Some of the guys I help our veterans with one leg or no legs. I had a friend who was blind. He was blind and in prison because of his charges. Guess what? They found that he wasn't guilty but he was also a doctor in Vietnam. So all of this, let us throw them out in the web. Well, you are talking about fellow veterans, people who served the country. You are talking about people. You say offender like people don't say conflict, they say inmate. These are people. And what we do here, we reflect on how we as a people will are seen later on and how well we take care of those who have errored. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Chair, just in closing, I want to add to earlier in thank you for giving me 1/3 time here just to close us out. Hopefully. The state attorney also sent a letter of support about this as did the chief official in this area. In just know that with that being said, if it was not deemed acceptable, he of all people would would not possibly say something about it. Guys, I try to understand this. I think maybe we just think a little bit different. I don't know what the answer is but when I do want to say is that and reiterate that things like this are put in place for public safety. And I want to, they are, there were a couple of things said about a contractor who Pete on the side of the road. Chris, I sent over instructions, were you able to pull those up? Page 1 and two that I had given you? Are you able to put them together by any chance? I will just go, there are several elements that the jury has to consider when convicting people of this and we need to be completely accurate. One of the elements is intended exposure and submission for sexual ordinance to be any vulgar or indecent mood. The exposure or exhibition of sexual organs in a vulgar, indecent or insidious manner. Can you add the second portion of it? Nakedness in a vulgar, nakedness was in a vulgar, indecent, lewd or less vicious manner. Proof of mere nudity is not sufficient to find a defendant guilty. This is the baseline of what our judicial system uses to convict. I am not making this stuff up, I see you shaking your head. In regards to this offense, the words vulgar and lewd. I'm trying to deal in facts here and respect. If there is nothing else, counsel, I would like to call for a motion. JEFFREY BROWER: Call into question in this we need to go to an immediate vote. We have two members who would like to speak. DANNY ROBINS: Counsel, I am sorry. I did not see you there. I will retract that. JEFFREY BROWER: Jake Johansson JAKE JOHANSSON: I want to say and clarification. I may need to ask Russ or Don for this. Those were jury instructions that we just got but, you know, I am trying to stay away from this. I have an acquaintance who is in this situation and never went to court. So, it was, you know, you may go to jail for 20 years and all the stuff that comes with going to jail is a sex offender. Or you could plea and it was urinating in public, a thing. Given that, he plead and so, here he is. He peed in public, probably the wrong thing to do. And so, now he is registered. And he has two... he needs to live by these rules. And none of that staff that was just mentioned a second ago, none of that stuff fell for him. He just planned because he did not want to go to jail and all the things that resulted from not. So, how do we make that leap of faith? I know the person that Councilman Robbins is thinking of. I know that person, he is in jail. Hopefully, if all of that stuff is true. But again, I'm going to ask a rhetorical question about peeing in public here. If you did it at the wrong place, at the wrong time, you might have plead as well. I am not saying it to change your mind, it is not just people who go to a jury trial who end up in this position. Thank you. JEFFREY BROWER: Councilman Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: Thanks Jake, I'm glad you asked that and I don't know if you remember the last time we discussed this, I brought this up. That is my biggest beef with the system and I ran for state attorney a couple years ago and I lost because I investigated mandatory sentencing. I am against any type of minimum sentencing because it takes only the checks and balances of our system. We got the legislature saying anyone who is accused of peeing or exposing themselves in front of a minor 12 or under, they are facing life. So, every single one of you, I have never peed on... (Laughs) but, no. None of you would play Russian roulette. I did the last time, you all know what it is. Only one bullet in the revolver. Five and six chance you would when but you would never, never in a million years. The reason you won't play it is because you know if you lose, if the one in six bullet comes out, you are dead. What happens with people like Jake and a lot of the people I have dealt with both as a prosecutor remember, I am former law enforcement as well, Danny. And not just a bleeding heart defender, I have prosecuted one of the biggest known molesters on the east side, back in the early 90s. OK? I am not sympathetic to these people. You need to understand, the people Jake is talking about and that she is talking about and that I am talking about – they are the people with 10 images on the computer. I don't how they got there. You stink to the bathroom and I can go on their and get 10 images on there. He wants to go to trial? Because, sorry. If you go to trial, not Russian roulette but if you go to trial on those allegations, you will probably win. Five and six chance you will win, just like Russian roulette. But if you lose and you have a bad jury, now you are going to prison for life. It is going to cost you your life. A lifetime of being raped by inmates, beaten by the guards, lifetime of misery. So what happens as a state attorney dangles the carrot? "We will offer you probation. We will let you walk among us." In cases where they can fax or the child is pregnant where there is STDs or a recorded phone call with evidence that this person committed the crime, it is questionable cases where they find on David's computer. "I did not know that was there." Yeah right, it was on your computer. If you have a defense. (Laughs) So, you want to go to trial? You feel lucky? Or will you take probation as a sex offender? Those are the people we are talking about. And just like Jake's friend and countless people that I talk about all the time, those are the people who I do not want to see living in the woods. The ones who did not have the courage to pull the trigger. I have read to the jury instruction countless times in my 34 years, both as a prosecutor and defense attorney. The problem is they do not go to trial because nobody. Not one of us and probably 90% of those people, 99% do not have the courage to pull the trigger and take their fate in front of six unknown people when the state is dangling the guarantee of probation. Ask yourself, would you really have the courage, if I accused one of you of doing something to my daughter, would you really feel comfortable taking it in front of a jury? Especially if the state attorney was offering you probation? Or are you willing to risk the rest of your life? A lot of people do not have the money or the courage to take that to trial. It sounds great, in theory, Danny. But the reality is most people do not have the courage to fight it effectively. An account of people like this, at least give them some sense of stability in their life and the chance of recovering. A lot of times, I think these are false allegations. I think this is the biggest, one of the biggest fallacies of our system. We are too quick, too tough on crime. It is low hanging fruit, politically, to want to hammer these people. A lot of innocent people are caught up in the net and that is who I am concerned about. JEFFREY BROWER: Thank you. Vice chair Kent. TROY KENT: Thank you, I have not asked questions were weighed in on this. I will just say... I came in here thinking one way and then, you know, I listened to Mr. Robins and I started feeling a different way and I listened to Don and then fill another way and then I hear Jake talk and I feel another way. This is a struggle for me. I will say, it weighs on me that the sheriff is behind this. It also weighs on me that the state attorney weighed in on this. But I have to say, you know, five of the seven of us represented by 115, hundred and 20,000 people, I have not had one of my kids achievements ask for this. If any of you have, I would like to hear about it. I have not had that. I have not had anybody call me and say hey, I want you to take this up where I saw this in the paper and I want you to support this. So also, this is not an easy decision which is why it has been brought up before, several times. Our attorneys have worked on it and we are sitting here this evening doing the hard work that the people elected us to do. So I really do not know where I am going to end up on this with a yes or no. Because... You know, Jake, you hear a story like that, it absolutely will rattle you. Because it is not, you know. When you think about the heinous, horrendous things, it is easy to say burn them, this is it. You know? If my memory is right, back whenever Florida agreed with the death penalty, there was a very, very effective commercial if my memory is correct. I was a little kid. It was this guy being led to the death chamber and he was just pleading with please, please, please. It did not do anything, please don't do this to me. The next scene was this little child saying, "please, please. I did not do anything to you." He goes back to the guy and the death penalty and it is very effecting because you relate get him, how dare you hurt my child. But there is another story, Jake and Don, because of your day job, you share that you represent people who are not willing, for lack of better terms, to play Russian roulette. Now they have the Scarlet letter for the rest of their life and they very well could have been urinating in public. It is inappropriate. I guess the take away from that is to do it in your pants, I guess. I mean, really. It is frightening when you hear about stories like that. I don't know where I am going to be on this. JEFFREY BROWER: I have not weighed in either but I will do it quickly. Don, the first time this came out because of your experience, you make a compelling argument that I am more afraid of the unintended consequences of this. The harm that we would do to the public and to people that... I am not even going to go into the possibilities of what they could have been tagged with. A guy with a younger girlfriend, whatever it is. If my phone was ringing, if I got any emails, if I saw headlines in the newspapers that this was a problem in Volusia County, I would feel differently. I think this is low hanging political fruit and I don't like that. So, I am going to oppose it for the reasons that you have said. I think we have a system in place that is taking care of these people and keeping them accountable. I don't, I am not hearing of a larger problem. Councilman Santiago? DAVID SANTIAGO: While he can certainly defend himself, I only China and because I don't think it is political posturing with these ordinances. Before I got on the Council, Councilman Robbins had mentioned that this is a priority of his. Back to me, before I got here. I recognize this is a difficult decision. I also recognize other municipalities and counties have done similar and it seems to be working. Well, it may not be convenient for some folks, it is not quite the same, Don. I am reflecting back on your other arguments earlier today with the cards that would make the difference. It is not quite the same, I will not make apples and apples. I think you alluded that if one more, what was the item? If one market have... that I do not use these analogies, if it does save one more or prevent one from being in an area they should not be, you're a child that could cause a problem – I know this is not the sole problem. I hate the fact that I just said the analogy because I will counter it in the future but that was just more support than anything. I think it seems to be working in other places, it is not an uproar of advocacy, saying do not do this, and hasn't worked in other communities? That is why I support it. Danny has been steadfast in working on this for a long time now and I am inclined to support. Thank you, Mr. chair. JEFFREY BROWER: And not seeing anyone else wishing to speak, which you call the role? SPEAKER: Mr. Dempsey. DON DEMPSEY: No. SPEAKER: Mr. Johansen. Mr. Kent. Mr. Reinhart, Mr. Santiago, Mr. Brower. JEFFREY BROWER: No and the ordinance passes, 5-2. Jake Johansson? JAKE JOHANSSON: I and just putting myself in the queue for the next one. JEFFREY BROWER: The chair at large in District 1, he wanted to get in the queue before someone takes your nominee? Appointments to the affordable housing advisory committee. Before I call on Jake, there are people on the list who do not qualify for any of the required positions. So are they not able to be nominated? The? They can be nominated however, six out of the eight categories do need to be filled. So what I will ask is after the four of you make your nominations, and going to go ahead and rearrange some categories of individuals appointed at the last meeting to ensure we get the 6/8. JEFFREY BROWER: OK. Alright, then go ahead, Jake Johansson. It's JAKE JOHANSSON: Sir, and excuse me, it will come up. The person that, from fate, is not on this list right now. Correct? SPEAKER: Correct. JAKE JOHANSSON: So you all now after and the last meeting, I wanted somebody from faith and I reached out to the group. They provided me a name. That name is going through the checks right now. But we do not know where she will fit. SPEAKER: Mr. Johansen, I do have the individual you will are talking about. I went ahead and got the positions they will fill. So, I will take that into consideration and once that individual does pass the clear hands check, we will bring her back. JAKE JOHANSSON: Can we know what places and that way the council members that will choose someone know where that person might fit. SPEAKER: The only position that that individual fits in is a citizen who is actively engaged as a… And someone with affordable housing. JAKE JOHANSSON: Filter three or I. SPEAKER: IV. JAKE JOHANSSON: Got it, copy. All right, so you will know that my only person right now that would fit into four IV, if you choose to allow me that person later on. SPEAKER: Which again, that place is currently filled by Mr. Martin Billings. So at the end of this, once the other three of you make your nominations, I will need to go ahead and move some individuals around and then I would like a motion and vote to confirm those position changes. Category changes. JAKE JOHANSSON: OK. SPEAKER: So, you are going to wait until the next meeting? JAKE JOHANSSON: Possibly, the putting on how everyone votes this afternoon. SPEAKER: Danny Robins. DANNY ROBINS: Thanks, chair. I am a bit confused. Who of the applicants do we have left? SPEAKER: You do have an evidence, she is an incumbent DJ Lebo, she is also incumbent. Terry (unknown name), and Phyllis Terry (unknown name). SPEAKER: I would like to nominate DJ Lebo, please. SPEAKER: Second. SPEAKER: Can you tell me who sent -- seconded that? SPEAKER: David Santiago. SPEAKER: DJ Lebo. Seconded by David Santiago. (unknown name)? SPEAKER: (Away from mic). SPEAKER: Anne Evans by Don Dempsey, seconded by Troy Kent. And I will do Terry Citeran (?). Is there a second on Terry? Second by David Santiago. And that is all of us for now. So, if we can vote on them and then we will take up your second question. Anne Evans, DJ levo, (unknown name), all in favour, say I. Any opposed? And those three nominees are appointed. SPEAKER: I already have the categories they need to be appointed to. So, we will take a minute for me to name them all as well is there categories and then I will take a motion and vote on what I asked for. So, Mr. Mark Billings, which is Mr. Brower's first appointment, would be elected to a citizen who is actively engaged in the residential home building industry in connection with affordable housing. Mr. Johansson's appointment would be at the next meeting, confirmed to a citizen who is actively engaged as an advocate for low income persons in connection with affordable housing. Miss and Evans would be a citizen who is actively engaged as a non-proof -- not-for-profit provider of affordable housing. Susanna Dino, which was Mr. Reinhardt's appointment from the last meeting, would be a citizen who is actively engaged as a real estate professional in connection with affordable housing. Mr. Whalen niece, which is Mr. (unknown name) appointment, would be a citizen who resides within the unincorporated areas of the county. Mr. Dwight Selby, which is Mr. Santiago's appointment, would be to the category of citizen who represents employers within the county. And DJ Lebo would be, I believe, Mr. Brower just appointed her, would be a citizen who represents essential services personnel as defined in the local housing assistance plan. And then Terry. That was Mr. Brower's appointment. Would be an applicant that does not fit in any of the categories. So, you would actually have seven out of the eight categories. JEFFREY S BROWER: OK. So, you need a motion to approve everything that you just said and a second. Is there a motion? SPEAKER: Motion to approve, stated by Carissa. JEFFREY S BROWER: Motion to approve by Jake Johansson, second by Matt Reinhart. All in favour, say I. SPEAKER: I. JEFFREY S BROWER: Any opposed? OK, that takes care of that. And we will move to public participation. We do have some. Thank you. John Nicholson. SPEAKER: John Nicholson, Daytona Beach side. Couple of issues. One, which did not come up when you're discussing the roadway in that development in the hill, to get that hill out if there is only $20,000. It is dirt cheap. And whether this project goes in or not, I would ask you all to ask George to sign the money, to get rid of that hill, because I personally hate going down the road and not being able to see 100 feet in front of me. So, if we can eliminate this, it would be great. Secondly, zone changes. I understand what people there were talking about. There has to be development. But we have set aside the centre basically of Volusia County for animals. Is there a way of creating a permanent zone where there are large properties, 2 acres, 5 acres, 10 acres, or whatever. That will be permanently in that category of farms or whatever. Because at this point, you could be in the middle of nowhere and at some point someone comes up and wants to change the zoning, and you say, or some future counsel says, "oh yeah, that is fine." And then you end up with whatever the next one is. (unknown name) development or something of that nature. Third, affordable housing. I know it does not apply to you mostly, but there are areas that boarding houses, just read an article on that. We used to have them years and years ago. Where single men could pay $10 a night or $40 a week or whatever it was who were working, newly divorced, travelling, whatever, they could afford it. And you get them off the streets. There are men out there who are homeless but have jobs or have the ability to get jobs and they need a place to stay. And lastly, the YMCA, the echo. I had a problem with a religious thing, Salvation Army. The only thing it does and YMCA are religious organizations. How we balance their right to be private versus their public views. To me, if they are providing environmental land, if they are providing a service to our children, especially sports, if they are doing that, they're doing something we would normally do ourselves. And what caused the money to have the field, to have employees, to maintain the fields. If they are going to do that for us and provide a service to our children, there is 600,000 of us. Not all of us belong to that church, but if all of our children can have access to additional services, I would OK that with echo grants. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Think you, that is the end of public participation. So, we will move to comments by County manager, George Recktenwald. GEORGE RECKTENWALD: I have none. JEFFREY S BROWER: I will move to County attorney, Michael Dyer. MICHEAL DYER: Yes, sir. Mr. (unknown name) is here hiding, as he normally does behind a desk. But I sent you an email. He handled the county's case in the recent hearing we had involving the West Volusia County authorities to contribute to the county's Medicaid contribution. In this case, as I know you all know and counsel has gone on for a little over two years, this was the last case pending before the trial court where they were arguing that they were not responsible for that Medicaid contribution. We are waiting on the written order, but the court will hold the county's favour is consistent with the prior rulings. I just want to thank him and his team for their very hard work on that. It has been a long road, thank you for your patience. And my wife just walked in. So, if you could maybe share with her how much you enjoyed working with me, I would appreciate it. Thank you. JEFFREY S BROWER: Did you ask her to stand? Oh, I see a hand, OK. OK, that brings us to counsel's closing comments. Don Dempsey, you are first today. DON DEMPSEY: I have nothing for today. Appreciate it, thanks. JEFFREY S BROWER: Jake Johansson. JAKE JOHANSSON: I want to verify that April 30 will in fact be a workshop here and we are going to informally go through those agenda items we discussed, is that correct, George? GEORGE RECKTENWALD: Yes, sir. That is, we can advertise it as a special meeting, but they give you flexibility. Otherwise, it will be a workshop. JAKE JOHANSSON: I think it is important that it is clear and expectations are set that regardless of what we call it, we are going to discuss where we want to go as part of our goalsetting on this. And then I guess what I am getting at is, when we have workshops that involve unlimited public comment, it quickly devolves into something we do not want. We have work to do. I think it is important April 30 we work. This is like having a conversation back at the lunch table that we cannot have, but we have to have it in the sunshine, so we will have it in the sunshine. I want to make sure that expectation is set for sub- SPEAKER: It is currently cued and advertised to be a workshop. Everyone can listen to what we are going to say, and then comment when the things come back for comment. JAKE JOHANSSON: Thank you. SPEAKER: First thing, Mike Dyer, where is your wife? Is she here or are you joking? I gotta tell you what a great guy… You know a great guy he is. But he is a pleasure to work with. So, we heard earlier and we have been hearing a lot about flooding. In some causes and things like that. At counsel, listen, I just want to remind everyone, you can get income if you have an opportunity, get into a small plane or when you are flying back into the area and take a look at Florida as you are coming over the landmass, there is water everywhere. I mean, there are ponds everywhere. And it made me think, you know, what is the highest elevation in Florida? It is buried in hell. It is 345 feet above main sea level. Britain hell is a flirt is not -- highest natural point in the lowest high point in the United States most of you consummate it without a Sherpa. And as your grandmother can get to the top -- your grandmother can get to the top without breaking a sweat. OK? It is what it says. Of course, that made me think of Mount Jordan. Mount Dora for those of you who want to know is 140 feet above sea level. We live in a very flat place and when we have a lot of rain, we are going to have a lot of water, it is part of the process. Last but certainly not least, is there was a horrific accident on LPGA Boulevard a few days ago. And you know, I do not even want to think about what the Heralds are going through. But I have been to that location in the past and I have pulled out of that location in the past. And it is dangerous. So George, I want to know if the county is looking into a possible light at this location. I know we are talking about a transfer of that road with the state, but… SPEAKER: Most of the cross street, LPGA… SPEAKER: Off the top of my head, Ben, do you know exactly which one? SPEAKER: It is the entrance to the preserve at LPGA. SPEAKER: Yes, sir. SPEAKER: I was made aware of that accident yesterday and I have already spoken to her traffic engineering staff, we will take a look at it. -- our. SPEAKER: One of our Volusia County's lost her six-year-old daughter and I know that the community is (indiscernible) from this. I am bringing it up because of the tragic accident, but also if you have not been out there, you need to try to go out there and pull out with that curve out there. If the County could do something before the state takes over that road, great. But I want the community to know that this counsel, when we find something, or we hear about something that is unsafe, that we do everything we can in our power to try to change that. SPEAKER: We will take a look, we will study it, there is criteria. We will look at that. And anything else we can do. So, thank you. SPEAKER: And my thoughts and prayers go out to the Herald family. I do not know them, but it is an absolute tragedy for this family in our community. And with that, I will say good evening. JEFFREY S BROWER: Reinhart. MATT REINHART: Thank you, chair. First thing, when we talked of the echo projects that we are going on, I talked about Daytona resubmitting, but they had not. Not of as yet, my understanding. So, my recommendation to those that are listening right now, that are with that project, I would encourage you to do so. The highest beach access, kudos. So, that is a long way -- waited project and (unknown name) and I had discussed that actually. And why I asked the questions in conjunction with (indiscernible) doing that, we can all have that the way it is. It is a major when we talked about. (unknown name) Road and coming in, that was an entry point to Volusia County. Or to Daytona, I am sorry. To Daytona. Same thing could be said. The entrance to the beach, that is one of the main entrances. So, kudos for that and the project as it moves along. Other than that, Don is not here right now, I will tell him he is never allowed to watch any movies about correction officers ever again. OK? Because we are not like that. (unknown name), that is out. Take it out of your movie repertoire. It awarded so there, nothing like what you see. Does not happen. So, you are not allowed to watch them anymore. Hollywood exaggerates that. And that is all I have come to think you very much. JEFFREY S BROWER: (unknown name) Robbins. DANNY ROBINS: Nothing to it pressing, chairman. Counsel, thank you. I just want to make, I made some observations here in this last 14 months. And this is trickling my opinion, but this counsel has made some great strides in staff has made some great strides and improvements to the way that we do business and looking at ordinances and going through this. I am not saying this because I have and ask here in a second, but I am proud of you guys. I sincerely am proud of staff and engagement. So, are you ready? Stanford zoo has a supply, no zip lines… And I think they… I would have to follow up. I want to try to look into it. I do not want the county to operate it, I want to see if that is something that is amicable or something that counsel may be interested to put out. You know, in the community for, there is one for toddlers and kids up to a certain weight. But what better way, I went on it, I am not the most flexible individual. But it was fun. But pick apart on the east side and website and put it out to a company to possibly run. It is not something we could maybe look into? Is -- are you guys a post? There is a little one in Daytona. SPEAKER: It is a little park. SPEAKER: We will have one over the tub grinder at the landfill and make it exciting. More of an adventure park situation. SPEAKER: On a serious note, I mean (unknown name) Park, it is inundated with… SPEAKER: We could seriously look at other amenities, you know, we can take a look. SPEAKER: Just to be fair, if we can look to see what it would take for someone to make it worth your while, but to pick one of our major parks on the east side and we will pick one on the west side. But that is all. I try to bring up things that our family enjoys. And I know other people enjoy that I see that are highly used. And I will still -- tell you at Stanford zoo, it has a lot of cool stuff. So, hopefully we can bring some of that to Volusia. But thank you, guys. JEFFREY S BROWER: Santiago. DAVID SANTIAGO: Thank you, chairman. Mike, is your wife still here? I just wanted to say to her, everything Troy said about your husband, I disagree with him. No Mike, I love you. You forgot to say biting thousand dyer. That is his nickname here. Danny, I am open to your idea. I just want to put this out. I hope we don't debate it today, but I do not want to forget it, but I wanted the Council to give it some thought. I had an observation when I went home at the last Council meeting that the process we have in place, I would like to open it up for potential change in the future. For example, I will just use, Danny, you have come up with several initiatives here over the last year I have been here. And you get consensus to say, "hey, we want to look into this or that." Or whatever it might be. And then we have a discussion briefly about it and then staff comes and presents a package to us and then staff goes again and if it goes from there, it goes again, and we have another ordinance hearing. There are so many of these bites of the apple. So, I find us debating the same thing three times. I am talking about efficiency only. I am OK with just you Danny, if you have a concept that you want to put forward, and ordinance to come back, I am OK with getting consensus for you to propose the assortment to work with staff. Come back with an ordinance that is advertised. It is advertised, we will be hearing this particular item. Before the Council for decision, for amendment. And then let's have the vetting process. It could either come and go at that point was that we get all of these bites at the apple and it causes the meetings to go long and redundant. It still provides the public an opportunity, notice opportunity of what we will discuss, but I just think it is awfully inefficient that we sometimes do things three times. And it is almost always the same debate. So, I am talking about initiatives that we put forward. Jake, do you have an idea? Me forward, meet with staff. This is the ideas Jake has with it, come before the council come and make a decision. SPEAKER: If I could… SPEAKER: The two ordinances that came forward today, I think, are really bad examples of the issue, and I understand what you are identifying. Because the (indiscernible) ordinance, it is unusual. I have not had an ordinance in my time here that we have had Penny for years. But the party that requested asks for time to possibly just what the request was. So, it was not us that did it. The sex offender ordinance, for example, I think typically our ordinances are going to be just as you said, David. I think if we get direction, we are bringing it back to you, if there is a big deviation to what we propose, we have to re-advertise and bring it back. Most of the time, we do not have to do it… The sex offender ordinance was a bit different because counsel has adjusted… We bring it back to advertised, vote on it. DAVID SANTIAGO: I think the one that reflected last meeting was the repeal of the gun issue that you talked about. We will hear that issue again. Because that this is the discussion, right? So, I would have preferred to come at that point, dealt with it as the businesses advertise. SPEAKER: We can take a look at that closer and see. I would say the times where we have brought it up for discussion, usually it is something that is brought up at the end of the meeting… DAVID SANTIAGO: We need to give you more direction and that was the point I was giving. If it is an initiative, I was if you get consensus, follow-up with staff. Hey, this is what I was thinking, this is what I was trying to propose. Put an ordinance together and then we decide or modify it and add their way, just trying to be more efficient. Thank you, Mr. cheerful so I am done. JEFFREY S BROWER: Mike, does every ordinance had to come back here to readings. SPEAKER: No, or defaults. Only those changes to your zoning code that changes are permitted or excluded for… Do but all of your other ordinances could be when reading. If you make a change down a larger substance of change to it because that impacts the title, we just have to readvertise. Which is fine, I mean sometimes that may come up, a lot of times I think you'll just vote up and down as it is proposed. SPEAKER: OK, thank you. Is your wife still here? SPEAKER: Yes. SPEAKER: Observations at seven. JEFFREY S BROWER: I will be quick because I said we would be done at seven. I want to let Mr. Dyer know that she is doing a tremendous job raising your children while you are at work. SPEAKER: I thought you were talking about Mike. SPEAKER: Pardon me? SPEAKER: I thought you were talking about raising Mike, because I would agree. JEFFREY S BROWER: As you can tell, I am having a hard time talking today, so I am not going to say much. I think either David or Matt have changed their colognes. And I am highly allergic to it (laughs). See I can even left because it makes me want to call. I did want to say one thing. In one of the debates, it was brought up that if you sit on the Council and you propose something, well what have you done? I did not want to respond to it then. And none of us did, because I really miss at the Council meeting into a back-and-forth. And I do not want them -- them to spin out of control and I do not want them to be a tit for tat. I think the public defender -- deserves better. I will say this, when it comes to the flooding issue, because I talk about it a lot. And I talked about changing our development pattern. Does not mean I am against all development. It means that we see some issues, even when standards are carried out. And so, we need to investigate that to see if there is changes that need to be made. So, one of the things that I have done consistently, is to say no to zoning changes. I have also promoted low impact development which has been sent and they have come back with at least a start of that. I am pleased with that. I think it is weak, and it is not complete, but it is a start. And now we can come back with it. But one of the things that happened today, I think, could be the most significant thing to investigate and bring up remedies for flooding, wherever it occurs, is chapter 9 of the con plan that we have that has some tremendous not suggestions, the shall do's. And if we would follow that… And then the trigger is pulled, we have to come up with… I am trying to not start coughing. With concrete plans. I want to see us do that. There is another thing that I would like to add, but I am going to talk with legal staff about it for us this week. So, I will make an appointment with you, Mike. But today, I think we had robust debate. And it was civil, it was educational to me, and I think that is what the public deserves and what they want. And I appreciate how the day went. So with that, I will stop and reconvene the meeting at 7:13.